PP 15/30 - For you consideration - KK played soft

NhlNut · #1 05-23-2006, 04:31 PM

Only 50 hands, MP2 is : vpip 30, 1.8 AF, 10% pfr

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP2 raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, MP2 calls.

Flop: (7.66 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (3.83 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero checks.

River: (3.83 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 5.83 BB

brandon · #2 05-23-2006, 04:45 PM

Ummm why arent we betting? I bet until im raised. I could see checking behind the river if he calls the flop and turn.

riverspecialist · #3 05-23-2006, 05:44 PM

yeah, flop is a must bet. fold to a checkraise here, which will NEVER happen.
On the turn a check or bet is ok. I like a check just because a freecard wont hurt you and all sorts of hands will pay off or bluff the river. A bet on the turn will scare away a lot of losing hands and cause a c/r and a crbluff too often.

joy2mike · #4 05-24-2006, 12:10 AM

Typically I would Bet/fold all streets but especially flop and turn. (I'm glad to see 2nd A here because it means the turn didn't hurt me). I could live with a river checkdown just because the 1.8AF would make me nervous if I got check-called on turn. Lower the AF<1.0 and you're valuebetting the whole way. In hands like this I'm glad that my HUD shows me my opponent's aggression factor for each individual street. This helps me with my river value bet decisions. If the guy is more aggro river than turn... I'm considering checking it down. If not, I'm betting 100% on river.

Dazarath · #5 05-24-2006, 02:02 AM

I don't think the flop should be a bet/fold 100% of the time, unless the villain's AF is like < 1. From his point of view, let's say your 3-betting range is AK-AQ, AA-99. KK-99 = 30 combos. AA = 3 combos, AK-AQ = 24 combos. (Someone check my counting skills.) The pot at this point is already ~3.75 BBs, 4.25, after you fire your continuation bet. So he only needs to invest 1 BB on a CR to steal the 4.25 BB pot. It'd be +EV to CR basically any hand he already raised with. I know this calculation isn't quite accurate, because a lot of the hands he'll raise with contain broadways, which decrease the total number of combos of KK-TT. But my point is, bet/folding KK on an A-high flop as a standard play is -EV.

joy2mike · #6 05-24-2006, 02:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think the flop should be a bet/fold 100% of the time, unless the villain's AF is like < 1. From his point of view, let's say your 3-betting range is AK-AQ, AA-99. KK-99 = 30 combos. AA = 3 combos, AK-AQ = 24 combos. (Someone check my counting skills.) The pot at this point is already ~3.75 BBs, 4.25, after you fire your continuation bet. So he only needs to invest 1 BB on a CR to steal the 4.25 BB pot. It'd be +EV to CR basically any hand he already raised with. I know this calculation isn't quite accurate, because a lot of the hands he'll raise with contain broadways, which decrease the total number of combos of KK-TT. But my point is, bet/folding KK on an A-high flop as a standard play is -EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, you can't always bet/fold... but you have to mostly bet/fold.

After the strength you've shown preflop, combined with the fact that an Ace on the flop helps your likely range 27 out of 57 times (your math), how often do you think someone is gonna check/raise as a bluff here?

And to be honest, if they get away with it every once in awhile that's probably good for me in the long run... since sometimes I am happy to see the Ace. What I'm saying is; if my opponent check/raises me EVERYTIME this happens, and I fold EVERYTIME I have KK-99, I'm still not in that bad of shape.

Still, I agree that a mixed strategy is warranted. Maybe call down or reraise like 16% of the time or so. And I'm more apt to do so if I've been in a session where I've had to fold some hands after showing 3 bet preflop strength. It's more likely they may be trying to run over me.

Besides, taking a shot at hitting a two outer on the river is a fun exercise in Karma.

Dazarath · #7 05-24-2006, 07:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
After the strength you've shown preflop, combined with the fact that an Ace on the flop helps your likely range 27 out of 57 times (your math), how often do you think someone is gonna check/raise as a bluff here?

[/ QUOTE ]
Quite often if you play like a weak/tightie. This is not some sophisticated play. This is just straight up, "Oh, he 3-bet, it's more likely he had a PP < A than an A, and he's the biggest weak/tightie ever. I'm going to CR his ass."

[ QUOTE ]
And to be honest, if they get away with it every once in awhile that's probably good for me in the long run...since sometimes I am happy to see the Ace.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's using a qualitative argument. Do the math; it's very +EV for your opponent.

Nate. · #8 05-24-2006, 08:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
After the strength you've shown preflop, combined with the fact that an Ace on the flop helps your likely range 27 out of 57 times (your math), how often do you think someone is gonna check/raise as a bluff here?

[/ QUOTE ]
Quite often if you play like a weak/tightie. This is not some sophisticated play. This is just straight up, "Oh, he 3-bet, it's more likely he had a PP < A than an A, and he's the biggest weak/tightie ever. I'm going to CR his ass."

[ QUOTE ]
And to be honest, if they get away with it every once in awhile that's probably good for me in the long run...since sometimes I am happy to see the Ace.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's using a qualitative argument. Do the math; it's very +EV for your opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice set of posts here, Dazarath.

One thing I'd caution everyone about is using some damn Pokertracker number or the other to dictate what you do in this situation, because many players have a tendency for this specific situation -- ace-high flops in reraised pots -- and while AF or whatever the hell you kids look at these days might be a guide, think twice before you deviate from what you think is the soundest line.

Anyway, I hate checking behind the flop, and usually I'm just pounding away until I've got a reason not to and then folding if Villain is that kind of honest and not folding if not, but one thing that's worth considering is bet flop - check turn - bet/call/maybe raise river. Sometimes you save money and sometimes you get another bet from a hand that's almost dead. Anyway, that might work better live when you can get a feel for things, but it's a line to keep in mind.

--Nate

joy2mike · #9 05-24-2006, 07:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
After the strength you've shown preflop, combined with the fact that an Ace on the flop helps your likely range 27 out of 57 times (your math), how often do you think someone is gonna check/raise as a bluff here?

[/ QUOTE ]
Quite often if you play like a weak/tightie. This is not some sophisticated play. This is just straight up, "Oh, he 3-bet, it's more likely he had a PP < A than an A, and he's the biggest weak/tightie ever. I'm going to CR his ass."

[ QUOTE ]
And to be honest, if they get away with it every once in awhile that's probably good for me in the long run...since sometimes I am happy to see the Ace.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's using a qualitative argument. Do the math; it's very +EV for your opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]

So do you always stay with KK if you get checkraised flop with an A? Three bet flop? Call down? What line do you prefer the most?

I still maintain it's best to stay with KK enough to keep from being run over... but not a majority of the time. I still like my 16%. You can also gauge whether or not someone will try to run over you in the same situation by observing what they hold when you have an A.
I haven't seen a lot of bluffing at the A hi flops to be honest, but I tend to play lower mid limits; 10/20, 15/30