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#12
03-24-2006, 10:59 AM
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Re: Too loose on the later streets vs folding the winning hand
[ QUOTE ]
With 5 players seeing a flop with an ace in it your hand is best almost never. I wouldn't raise these flops. [/ QUOTE ] So would you call? I was going on the SSHE principle that on the flop, if you are behind a better, you almost always raise or fold. The only call was if you had something like a straight draw where you would only win if you hit it, and not by pairing. (Or if the pot was small.) I just made up hands for everyone, and with Pokerstove I saw that my equity doesn't go up knocking out the other players. I guess middle pair is drawing just like a straight draw? -Tom 
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#13
03-24-2006, 12:04 PM
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Re: Too loose on the later streets vs folding the winning hand
[ QUOTE ]
as far as the example you gave.I think you set yourself up for a fold with the 8 high.If you had just check/call the river it would have cost you same amount and you would have been there at showdown. [/ QUOTE ] I found the hand. MP2 is a calling station, 45 / 8 / 0.6 with 92 hands CO looks like a rock, 7 / 0 / 0 with only 30 hands (auto rated as Tight-unknown) Pacific Poker $1/$2, Full ring, 8-handed Hero is BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, 2 folds, Hero checks (4.5 SBs, 4 players) Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Hero checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, CO checks (2.5 BBs, 4 players) Turn: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Hero checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, CO checks (2.5 BBs, 4 players) River: 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Hero bets, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO raises, Hero folds, MP2 calls. Final pot: 6.8 BBs MP2 shows 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] for a 6-high flush CO shows J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] for a K-high straight MP2 wins 6.8 BBs So, with an 8-high flush in a small pot, I should just check-call the river? What if it's Hero checks, MP2 bets, MP3 folds, CO raises, Hero ? Call 2 on the river? I know I shouldn't be results oriented, but with an 8-high 1-card flush, is this a good fold? -Tom
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#14
03-24-2006, 12:13 PM
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Re: Too loose on the later streets vs folding the winning hand
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] as far as the example you gave.I think you set yourself up for a fold with the 8 high.If you had just check/call the river it would have cost you same amount and you would have been there at showdown. [/ QUOTE ] I found the hand. MP2 is a calling station, 45 / 8 / 0.6 with 92 hands CO looks like a rock, 7 / 0 / 0 with only 30 hands (auto rated as Tight-unknown) Pacific Poker $1/$2, Full ring, 8-handed Hero is BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, 2 folds, Hero checks (4.5 SBs, 4 players) Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Hero checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, CO checks (2.5 BBs, 4 players) Turn: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Hero checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, CO checks (2.5 BBs, 4 players) River: 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Hero bets, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO raises, Hero folds, MP2 calls. Final pot: 6.8 BBs MP2 shows 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] for a 6-high flush CO shows J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] for a K-high straight MP2 wins 6.8 BBs So, with an 8-high flush in a small pot, I should just check-call the river? What if it's Hero checks, MP2 bets, MP3 folds, CO raises, Hero ? Call 2 on the river? I know I shouldn't be results oriented, but with an 8-high 1-card flush, is this a good fold? -Tom [/ QUOTE ] i'd probably check the river and call one bet but not overcall. with your feeling that CO is a rock this is a stupidly easy fold by you. revise your read, and go to the next hand.
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#15
03-24-2006, 12:32 PM
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Re: Too loose on the later streets vs folding the winning hand
I would fold this. I would've called MP2's single bet but I wouldn't have cold called 2 bb's. This is terrible play by CO. He robbed you of the pot and gave it to MP2. Your play is +ev though and you shouldn't be worried about the outcome.
If I think I'm most likely behind on the river I'll call based on the size of the pot and the likelyhood i'm behind. With a low flush like this I'd say you'll lose here against 2 players maybe 80% of the time so a call of 2 bbs into a 6.8bb pot is not right. But 1 bb into 6bb is fine. As an aside I notice your playing in Donkey Kong Land at Pacific. Most of the rules don't apply there. I'd recommend learning the game somewhere else then tackling Pacific if you have to. They aren't poker players and the experience you gain there will get you into bad habits. You will never be able to profit that much at that site anyway until they upgrade their software to cater for multi tabling so I'd give it a wide berth. For limit ring games Party is the best.
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#16
03-24-2006, 12:52 PM
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Re: Too loose on the later streets vs folding the winning hand
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] With 5 players seeing a flop with an ace in it your hand is best almost never. I wouldn't raise these flops. [/ QUOTE ] So would you call? I was going on the SSHE principle that on the flop, if you are behind a better, you almost always raise or fold. The only call was if you had something like a straight draw where you would only win if you hit it, and not by pairing. (Or if the pot was small.) I just made up hands for everyone, and with Pokerstove I saw that my equity doesn't go up knocking out the other players. I guess middle pair is drawing just like a straight draw? -Tom [/ QUOTE ] By raising you're only knocking out hands that are way behind. You're building a pot for the Aces. I'd probably call due to the BD flush possibility, but I wish my call would closing the action. Check-fold the turn UI.
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#17
03-24-2006, 01:07 PM
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Re: Too loose on the later streets vs folding the winning hand
[ QUOTE ]
As an aside I notice your playing in Donkey Kong Land at Pacific. Most of the rules don't apply there. I'd recommend learning the game somewhere else then tackling Pacific if you have to. They aren't poker players and the experience you gain there will get you into bad habits. You will never be able to profit that much at that site anyway until they upgrade their software to cater for multi tabling so I'd give it a wide berth. For limit ring games Party is the best. [/ QUOTE ] so really really worng. those games are the ideal place to learn about loose passive games. Pacific is one of the most lucrative places to play -- or was when I did play there. [ QUOTE ] They aren't poker players... [/ QUOTE ] wtf does this mean?
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#18
03-24-2006, 02:53 PM
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Re: Too loose on the later streets vs folding the winning hand
Somewhere....and I simply don't recall where, I saw someone write that if your W$SD was over 50%, you're probably folding too often.
I know that disagrees with the FAQ, but that makes plenty of sense to me. If there's 3 people, including me at showdown, I only have to win over a 1/3rd of the time to make money. So (ignoring rake), if I win 35% of the time, I'm a winning player! What am I missing? (Yes, I realize that the fact that I don't play all hands to showdown vs. fold pre-flop, COULD affect the rate I have to make, but it doesn't have to. And of course, I know that all pots are not equal, but let's jsut consider an "average" pot over and over and over. And finally, I know that not all pots wind up with more than 2 people at showdown, but plenty do.) In a nutshell, if there a x people at showdown, I only have to win more than 1/x of the time to be a winning player, right?
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#19
03-24-2006, 02:55 PM
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Re: Too loose on the later streets vs folding the winning hand
[ QUOTE ]
I would fold this. I would've called MP2's single bet but I wouldn't have cold called 2 bb's. This is terrible play by CO. He robbed you of the pot and gave it to MP2. Your play is +ev though and you shouldn't be worried about the outcome. [/ QUOTE ] Thanks, I think I am getting it. [ QUOTE ] As an aside I notice your playing in Donkey Kong Land at Pacific. Most of the rules don't apply there. I'd recommend learning the game somewhere else then tackling Pacific if you have to. They aren't poker players and the experience you gain there will get you into bad habits. You will never be able to profit that much at that site anyway until they upgrade their software to cater for multi tabling so I'd give it a wide berth. For limit ring games Party is the best. [/ QUOTE ] I heartily disagree. I do play 2-3 tables now, 1 at Pacific and the others wherever. I just finished a bonus at Party, and was going to try William Hill next. It is theorized that Pacific is so full of bad players because they can only play 1 table there. Most TAGs play 4+ tables, so tables everywhere else are filled with more TAGs. If Pacific changed to allow multi-tabling, the "softness of games" would decrease; the games would not be as loose. -Tom
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#20
03-24-2006, 03:18 PM
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Re: Too loose on the later streets vs folding the winning hand
[ QUOTE ]
Somewhere....and I simply don't recall where, I saw someone write that if your W$SD was over 50%, you're probably folding too often. I know that disagrees with the FAQ, but that makes plenty of sense to me. If there's 3 people, including me at showdown, I only have to win over a 1/3rd of the time to make money. So (ignoring rake), if I win 35% of the time, I'm a winning player! What am I missing? (Yes, I realize that the fact that I don't play all hands to showdown vs. fold pre-flop, COULD affect the rate I have to make, but it doesn't have to. And of course, I know that all pots are not equal, but let's jsut consider an "average" pot over and over and over. And finally, I know that not all pots wind up with more than 2 people at showdown, but plenty do.) In a nutshell, if there a x people at showdown, I only have to win more than 1/x of the time to be a winning player, right? [/ QUOTE ] a w$sd under 50% either means you are running poorly or not folding early enough. as w$sd gets higher, say 55%, it becomes more likely that you folding too many winning hands but maybe you are just super awesome at poker. people with w$sd around 60% are definitely folding too much. this is for 10 handed loose passive games. your thought process above is definitely corrupted. it does matter. (bolded part)
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