AP Spokesman Mark Seif Video Interview Oct 26

[ikestoys]

Dan druff...

As for #1 and #2, I've been accused of being able to see hole cards well before this scandal too. In fact, it's a pretty common thing to be accused of as a winning player, so I don't think that should really count against Seif at all.

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However, I can guarantee that he is not convinced Seif is innocent

[/ QUOTE ] But you can also say that he isn't convinced that he's guilty. This is my position, this is the argument I'm making. Stuckinpigh is agreeing with me.

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ikestoys, honestly, do you believe Mark has the right to act indignant when people call him into question for the above?


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IF you've accused Seif of anything that he didn't do, he has reason to be pissed. Conditional. Also, that seems like a pretty one sided description of events, because IF the events involving #3 and #4 are as described (which we don't have evidence to the contrary), its seems like his possible exoneration is out of his control.

#5 is the only real valid point you've made towards Seif losing his right to be indignant, but this is still pretty easily explained by stupidity/wishing it wasn't happening/covering up and ISN'T evidence that he cheated earlier. It's only evidence that he, like AP, tried to make this go away.

[apefish]

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I haven't read this whole thread, but I've paid a bit of attention to the scandal. And, since this is BBV, here's my brag (20 months ago!)

My opinion on Seif

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Note: if you read that linked thread there is some interesting Seif chat from the table. Obviously it will only lead to more questions without answers from him.

[pokergrader]

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1) Mark was accused of seeing hole cards more than 20 months before anyone thought such a thing was possible.

2) A cheating scandal occurred over the summer where the highest level people at AP viewed people's hole cards -- an m/o identical to what Seif was accused of in early 2006.

3) All proof that could have exonerated Mark is missing from AP's servers, even though the cost of storing hand histories is extremely trivial.

4) Mark promised to show the complete hand histories, supposedly completely ignorant of the fact that they were unavailable.

5) Despite his 2 bracelets and years of tournament experience, Mark is the only poker player in the world who could not see clear cheating in the POTRIPPER re-enactment.

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Mark does not need to exonerate himself. He is innocent until proven guilty.


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I think the burden of proof shifts heavily given the circumstances.

You know he is aware that there is apparently no sort of legal recourse anybody can take against AP or him, so I think one can fairly accurately assume silence is guilt. Its not like he is going to jail here, his character is on trial. Don't let him off the hook so easily.

[ikestoys]

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The author is the guy who was "cheated" by Seif. He states that he has no proof that Seif cheated.

His post was made before the second round of revelations came out about AP, which included IP numbers.

Big quote:
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At this point if I was cheated or not is really irrelevant. Perhaps I was just angry at losing such a large sum which at the time was more than just a micro percentage of my bankroll. I've always thought it was a terrible prop for Mark to play those big games anyway. Afterall if he wins tons then it's rigged for him, if he loses then he loses his money and has to deal with all the trash talking that goes along with it. I don't play much live poker other than some wsop events so I haven't had a chance to really meet Mark, but I would actually like to meet him at some point and apologize to him at least for blatantly accusing him of cheating without a lot more concrete proof other than a few dozen hands played with him. At this point I'm chalking it up to me making a poor overall decision even though it might have been good table selection by playing him. Afterall he may not be a popular person in the poker world but he still is a professional player and should be given some respect for that.

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Can we end the Seif thing now?

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So we are going to correctly chastise AP, but nobody that works for them deserves any mud slung their way (other than anonymous high level consultants)?

You know what, you are right. How dare we, the cheated customers, question this company who has been so forthright with evidence and proof. Especially this fine man, Mark Seif, who defends himself by attacking us for belittling his informative and forthcoming statements. I mean of course he didn't cheat, even though he had the means and no chance of getting caught. And maybe as a professional player he would actually know how to cheat and make it look good. But of course he wouldn't do that, he is such a noble guy.

Lets just drop this whole AP thing. I'm sure they didn't mean any harm.

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Ummm.... I am a cheated customer. I'm not sure if you are, but OK. Bring me proof, hell, bring me some actual strong evidence and I'll be the first to jump on the take down Mark Seif bandwagaon. But no one has that yet, the guy who first made the allegations doesn't even think that. Until then, you all are a lynch mob.

[pokergrader]

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The author is the guy who was "cheated" by Seif. He states that he has no proof that Seif cheated.

His post was made before the second round of revelations came out about AP, which included IP numbers.

Big quote:
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At this point if I was cheated or not is really irrelevant. Perhaps I was just angry at losing such a large sum which at the time was more than just a micro percentage of my bankroll. I've always thought it was a terrible prop for Mark to play those big games anyway. Afterall if he wins tons then it's rigged for him, if he loses then he loses his money and has to deal with all the trash talking that goes along with it. I don't play much live poker other than some wsop events so I haven't had a chance to really meet Mark, but I would actually like to meet him at some point and apologize to him at least for blatantly accusing him of cheating without a lot more concrete proof other than a few dozen hands played with him. At this point I'm chalking it up to me making a poor overall decision even though it might have been good table selection by playing him. Afterall he may not be a popular person in the poker world but he still is a professional player and should be given some respect for that.

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Can we end the Seif thing now?

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So we are going to correctly chastise AP, but nobody that works for them deserves any mud slung their way (other than anonymous high level consultants)?

You know what, you are right. How dare we, the cheated customers, question this company who has been so forthright with evidence and proof. Especially this fine man, Mark Seif, who defends himself by attacking us for belittling his informative and forthcoming statements. I mean of course he didn't cheat, even though he had the means and no chance of getting caught. And maybe as a professional player he would actually know how to cheat and make it look good. But of course he wouldn't do that, he is such a noble guy.

Lets just drop this whole AP thing. I'm sure they didn't mean any harm.

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Ummm.... I am a cheated customer. I'm not sure if you are, but OK. Bring me proof, hell, bring me some actual strong evidence and I'll be the first to jump on the take down Mark Seif bandwagaon. But no one has that yet, the guy who first made the allegations doesn't even think that. Until then, you all are a lynch mob.

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This argument is ridiculous. We don't have any proof because they destroyed it.

He was accused of cheating in this manner. In the past month we have learned that not only is this manner of cheating possible, but its usage was covered up until leaked evidence was so damning they finally admitted it.

They realize the current evidence isn't damning, so they are going to be quiet and let people like you try to damage the credibility of the attackers.

Well let me see.

1) Accused cheating
2) Proof of that method of cheating
3) Destroyed evidence
4) Silence

Doesn't sound so crazy to me.

[Dudd]

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and with this lovely post, I'm done with this thread.

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I admire your two minutes of will power.

[Ps3tn0NcYk]

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I think the burden of proof shifts heavily given the circumstances.


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I agree with this, however I think those in the trenches should measure their words cautiously.

I mention this earlier -- normally when people are libeled they don't publicly bluster about law suits. They quietly cobble together the incriminating evidence and then slam the libeling parties with a complaint. Often the guilty will yell and scream about potential legal action in a futile effort to silence their critics - knowing full well that their threats are empty because the accusations carry merit.

Again, no evidence of cheating is not evidence of no cheating especially when the alleged cheaters employer, who has also admitted to a massive conspiracy of cheating by high level consultants, has destroyed the data, in contravention to industry regulations, that can prove or disprove the accusation.

I extend the benefit of doubt to Seif, but the circumstances surrounding this issue are certainly damning to his position.

He needs to produce those hand histories or publicly condemn AP for negligently violating the industry regulations that state gaming sites must store HH for five years.

[Synergistic Explosions]

AP offers 10% interest on account balances. In hopes of getting a quick cash infusion? Who knows. The deposit money is supposed to be kept in a safe bank account probably not getting more than 2 or 3% interest since it needs to be liquid. That seems odd to me. There would be no benefit to AP to make such an offer unless they could use that money they are paying 10% interest on and use it to get a higher return. So, very strange offer from AP.

Roughly the same time, AP deletes five years of HH's under advisement of who?

Six months later, high ranking executives/owners/consultants
admit under public pressure and damning evidence, to grievous improprieties and security breaches, stealing untold amounts of money from hundreds and hundreds of it's customers. Considering the cheating going on in MTT's the numbers of customers affected are more likely in the thousands and thousands.

AP volunteers information that the security breach and connected cheating was limited to the available HH's on file. Nothing occurred prior to the HH's being deleted they assure.

Superuser account #363 was set up in the early stages of AP's inception, but was never used in the same manner in earlier years, according to AP itself. The deletion of HH's therefore have no bearing on anything if what AP says is true. All the cheating is located in the presently stored last six months of HH's that AP so graciously kept from being deleted.

Thanks AP for making us feel 100% safe and secure at your site. A site set up by poker player for poker players afterall. Yeah, right.

[Dan Druff]

ikes, I'm not going to insult you or call for your banning like others have, but your constant dancing around the actual issue at stake is getting annoying.

Let's try this one more time:

Mark Seif has been the "face" of AP for over 3 years, and possibly is more than that.

Mark was accused of cheating by viewing hole cards in February, 2006. The complaint was laughed off at the time due to the incorrect assumption that this was impossible.

Cheating did indeed occur on AP in the summer of 2007, in that exact fashion -- hole cards being viewed by people high up within the AP organization.

In consideration of all of the above, I stated that Mark Seif's questioned heads-up match should be re-examined.

Please explain where I was unreasonable or insulting to Mark by making such a statement.

[suzzer99]

Druff, apparently you can't force-feed logic to someone who is bound and determined to spit it back out. Try pretending you're an airplane of logic, and ike's brain is the hanger.

Or maybe you'd like Mark Seif to come back on here and set the record straight? Because he really honestly tried to answer everyone's questions for 3 whole posts, before the din of the rabble just got too much for him. Really truly honestly he did. He was getting to all your questions next I'm sure.