JJ vs unknown

F. McSimmons · #1 08-21-2007, 01:17 PM

Villain is unknown as title says... I'm pretty sure 3-flinging this flop is correct. I think I'm commited to calldown now after the flop, correct?

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (10 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, Hero raises, 7 folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, BB raises, UTG folds, Hero 3-bets, BB caps, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.25 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

River: (9.25 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.25 BB

MrWookie · #2 08-21-2007, 01:18 PM

Standard.

KitCloudkicker · #3 08-21-2007, 01:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think I'm commited to calldown now after the flop, correct

[/ QUOTE ]

yup

F. McSimmons · #4 08-21-2007, 01:20 PM

I apologize if I'm posting pretty lame hands, but I just really really suck at this game :-)

Todpullen · #5 08-21-2007, 01:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I apologize if I'm posting pretty lame hands, but I just really really suck at this game :-)

[/ QUOTE ]

Being a newbie here, I find this sort of hand very useful. This sort of thing I see a lot in my game and I usually call down, and often lose (well it seems that way) ... so I sit here wondering if I am spewing and should make better laydowns. The responses to your post are helpful to a lot of us beginners lurking out here!

jstill · #6 08-22-2007, 12:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I apologize if I'm posting pretty lame hands, but I just really really suck at this game :-)

[/ QUOTE ]

this isnt lame at all... no matter what line u take 3bet the flop or raise the turn you are probably committed to showing down.... if u know a player perhaps you could raise the turn and fold to a 3bet but its uncomfortable even then... if u 3bet the flop u have to calldown a cap most likely, many players cap weak TPs (me) vs some players flop 3bets as they take it as generally weakness and plenty of players cap lead big draws due to equity and fold equity. Whether we could fold if the flush hits on the turn with no redraw if he caps the flop is tough.. I probably wouldnt but im sure its close?

jbas philosophy on this is to take the line you can feel the best calling down vs further aggression against so he likes to 3bet the flop...

Id prefer to think of it as which line nets the most money but thats hard to break down without knowing how often your ahead vs his flop cr'ing range, how often he calls down further aggression vs each line ect ect to quantify the EV of each line so maybe its best to find a simplier way to look at it that will often correlate to the EV of each line (as jba does).

The other question obviously is whether we should put in another raise somewhere or not... For everyone who says this hand is standard what hands would u just called down? TT A9 T9? wheres the cut off for you?

Ive written a few posts where I go against the trend and opt to pass up a thinnish raise to avoid getting punished when behind and losing air hands from his range they might cr with (or when they make a good fold with some made hand theyd put in more bets when u just call).

here vs an unknown I think youre good to put in another raise and I like it better on the flop (becuz worse made hands will fold to the turn raise often)... but its got to be close or debatable... for example an 8 hi coordinated flop I may not 3bet the flop or raise the turn with 99. tough to say I ll try to dig up some threads that relate to these kind of issues if I can find them.

F. McSimmons · #7 08-22-2007, 01:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I apologize if I'm posting pretty lame hands, but I just really really suck at this game :-)

[/ QUOTE ]

this isnt lame at all... no matter what line u take 3bet the flop or raise the turn you are probably committed to showing down.... if u know a player perhaps you could raise the turn and fold to a 3bet but its uncomfortable even then... if u 3bet the flop u have to calldown a cap most likely, many players cap weak TPs (me) vs some players flop 3bets as they take it as generally weakness and plenty of players cap lead big draws due to equity and fold equity. Whether we could fold if the flush hits on the turn with no redraw if he caps the flop is tough.. I probably wouldnt but im sure its close?

jbas philosophy on this is to take the line you can feel the best calling down vs further aggression against so he likes to 3bet the flop...

Id prefer to think of it as which line nets the most money but thats hard to break down without knowing how often your ahead vs his flop cr'ing range, how often he calls down further aggression vs each line ect ect to quantify the EV of each line so maybe its best to find a simplier way to look at it that will often correlate to the EV of each line (as jba does).

The other question obviously is whether we should put in another raise somewhere or not... For everyone who says this hand is standard what hands would u just called down? TT A9 T9? wheres the cut off for you?

Ive written a few posts where I go against the trend and opt to pass up a thinnish raise to avoid getting punished when behind and losing air hands from his range they might cr with (or when they make a good fold with some made hand theyd put in more bets when u just call).

here vs an unknown I think youre good to put in another raise and I like it better on the flop (becuz worse made hands will fold to the turn raise often)... but its got to be close or debatable... for example an 8 hi coordinated flop I may not 3bet the flop or raise the turn with 99. tough to say I ll try to dig up some threads that relate to these kind of issues if I can find them.

[/ QUOTE ]
Very interesting read, thanks for posting this.

Smurph64 · #8 08-21-2007, 02:01 PM

Isn't this a typical wa/wb scenario?

tyler_cracker · #9 08-21-2007, 02:24 PM

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Isn't this a typical wa/wb scenario?

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not even close.

Smurph64 · #10 08-21-2007, 02:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Isn't this a typical wa/wb scenario?

[/ QUOTE ]

not even close.

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Elaborate please