5/10 - KK - Awful flop ,interesting players

[Heisenb3rg]

BB plays kind of funny, I've seen him been overly passive and overly agressive at times.. 35/11/1.3 type (just made those stats up). Not too much of a read other than he's not a good player, but not a bad player either.

Button is a complete moron beyond all imagination, plays 100% of hands, will ALWAYS bet if checked to on the flop and turn.. Will sometimes (often) raise with complete air, or call down to the river with 3 high and fold it depending on his mood.
Completly unpredictable (besides his checking patterns) and awful.


Poker Stars
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $5/$10
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6.4SB, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Button 3-bets</font>, BB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (7.7BB, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, Hero folds...


I'm pretty positive I botched this hand up bad. Figure it's a major reverse implied odds situation and it's probabily a flop fold, and at least fold to when the flop gets 3-bet by maniac. Just curious on the "thought process" that should be going on in a hand like this.

I know it is heavily dependent on the player type. For example what if we assumed that BB is donking any pair + any high sapde, given that we KNOWN button can go nuts with a random hand is it still correct to fold?
Clearly if we KNEW it was either an ace or a spade its an easy muck, but why does he have to be betting an ace only?

Does Button being an absolute moron make it worse or better for our hand? I know he can re-raise here with King high and no spade draw.. (he did)

Im less interested in the best play , but more the "thought process".

[pokerjunky]

I think you played it fine considering your read, although it's close and I'm not really sure. Maniacs raise all kind of crap especially HU, but here it's 3 way and he's 3 betting a donk and a raise on a scary board. Even complete retards make big hands every now and then. Folding the flop is probably the correct play the more I think about it.

[Guy McSucker]

Why would you raise this flop?

Once you do and the action goes as it does, why call if you're going to fold the turn? There is surely a bet coming on the turn from one of these guys. There's only one turn card you can possibly like.

I just don't get any of it.

Guy.

[Heisenb3rg]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you raise this flop?

Once you do and the action goes as it does, why call if you're going to fold the turn? There is surely a bet coming on the turn from one of these guys. There's only one turn card you can possibly like.

I just don't get any of it.

Guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Normally the reason to raise the flop is for the scenario when the first player is betting a hand less than an ace, we want to knock out the player behind us, hopefully he has a low spade and he incorrectly folds.

Had the person behind not been a maniac, and the person leading was leading made hands less than an ace, raising is undoubtably the correct play.

As for calling the flop 3-bet then folding for to the turn,
it's because the person who wasn't the last flop agressor donked the turn again. This left me in a horrible position if the maniac decided to raise. It had nothing to do with the cards at all. That player is basically saying "I still like my hand despite the flop going 3 bets each". Those stop and go plays in multiway pots are rarely made with draws except at the highest level and by retards.

My idea of calling the flop was hopefully to have relative position on the turn, see how the action goes, and posibly call a turn bet. Of course instamucking if it was a spade.
Of course you only have 10 seconds to think about your decision and I was pretty baffled by the whole scenario, so one small bet for seeing how the turn plays out and the time to think in a now 7BB pot was worth it.

[gehrig]

this hand is horrible. fold the flop the first chance u get. don't raise the flop. don't call the 3bet.

raising the flop is good when all of the following conditions are met:

- donker does not have an ace
- guy behind u does not have an ace
- donker does not have a spade
- guy behind u has a spade but will fold it

which is to say: lol

[TheHip41]

fold the flop

[octaveshift]

This hand makes me angry.

Call a 3-bet and then fold the turn?

Spewtastic!

[jt1]

1) Pot is small
2) Hero may be behind with just 2 outs
3) If Hero is ahead, he has to dodge 14 outs
4) Hero is out of position

[Heisenb3rg]

I just did some intense poker stove calculations with the assumption that the donker has a pair of 8's or better, or any spade T higher or better, some made flushes or a set (unlikely the last 2). Including only those hands that I call from in the big blind.

I ran this in pokerstove

Donkers equity : 45%
Your equity : 31%
Random hand Equity : 24%

I was amazed just how high the random hand equity was.
I definitly have overestimated the strength of KK in this situation.

However, calling it a spew is ridicoulous , your equity is so close it's almost borderline a raise, assuming my assumptions were close. There's a difference between a clear error and a spew. A spew is defined by the magnitude of the mistake, not the obviousness of it.

Once on the turn we get another donk, Im nearly completly confident he has a pair of aces or better and im drawing to 1 out at best. Id muck it in a 15BB pot.

It's all to do with the psychology of the scenario. A flop donk after no action is TOTALLY different than a turn donk after tons of action.
It reminds me of an argument I had with a friend. If somehow I had AA on the button in a 3SB pot, the board was 266, an SB a BB and a Button, the BB was an ABC Tag. If Sb checked, BB checked, I bet, sb folded, BB called. I wouldn't take a side bet offering 50 to 1 that my hand was any good. All, from a single call on a harmless board. This donk represented that same thing to me. It's thinking about the psychology of the situation. Thinking about the hand from HIS perspective. Im mind boggled many people think the turn fold is bad, even after we bloated the pot.

Btw this maniac is so bad that he called down with K high with no spade draw. The donker showed Q8 with no spade draw.

[BigBadBabar]

i fold the flop.