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  #1  
Old 11-09-2007, 04:48 AM
David Troyer David Troyer is offline
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Default Cheating at a poker room?

Cheating at the Belagio Poker Room

It’s a Thursday afternoon at the Belagio, November 8, 2007. I’m sitting in a 2-5 n/l game waiting for my name to be called on the 5-10 n/l game. Haven’t played here in 6 months because of my certainty of collusion going on in the no limit games at the Belagio. Lots of reports in 2+2 forums suggested collusion was rampant at Belagio also. I did play yesterday and won a little. The 5-10 n/l games in Vegas that are going all the time are Wynn, and Bellagio, with an occasional game on the weekends at Red Rock and Ceasars. Im sorta forced to go where the games are.
A must move 5-10 no limit game is called on table 31 at 4pm. Tommy, a 20’ish asian sits in seat 1, an asian girl Sue sits beside him in seat 2. I’m in seat 8 talking to a poker friend. I remarked that they were sitting together yesterday and I suspected that they where cheating (colluding as a team). We talked about and observed the signals between the two. Whenever Tommy would get ready to fold, he would hold his cards ½ inch off the felt to signal to Sue to fold also. When he was ready to play, he would place a chip on his card which was the signal that he would raise and she would ALWAYS call.
In about 45 minutes, sue called every hand that tommy reaised. Usually, this was done in the later positions, trying to isolate one person with two cards against their 4 cards, one of which would presumable be a good hand. Sue limped one time in 45 minutes without tommy, all other times, they where in pots together.
A pathetic looking old lady is in seat 9. She has bruised arms and bruised eyes, and is 50 lbs overweight. She’s on her second buyin of $500. All fold to her in middle position and she limps for 10, tommy signals raise and raises it up to 60, sue calls 60, MP lady calls 60. time is around 4:30pm, 11/8/2007, table 31. flop is 8 7 3 two diamonds. MP checks, now comes the raise signal from tommy, a stack of $5 red chips on top of his cards. We are playing with $10 chips and this is the first time he has placed a stack of red chips on his cards. He raises to $120, Sue makes it $400 to go. Mp mucks hand, aver 30 seconds of theatrics (very poor ones at that) tommy mucks hand and Sue rakes in pot. Really smooth team play. Team wins $60 from mark, neither show their hand.
Sue is moved to main game right after hand. I move to her empty seat so I can be to the cheaters left. I want to bust him. He’s called to 2nd main game. I’m called right after to his game. There are 3 5-10 no limit games going.
I go directly to day shift supervisor of the poker and report the cheating team. He wants to know who they are and I point them both out and brush identifies them as tommy and sue, regulars in the poker room. I explain all the signals and the method they used for cheating. He tells brush to keep them in separate games. 20 minutes later, tommy asks for a table change to Sues game. Brush denies the request. Tommy is indignant and realizes hes been had. Goes over to Sue and they are talking, then both go out to the sports bar. When they return, Sue goes to brush and raises hell about not being able to cheat at same table with Tommy. Brush sends her to day shift supervisor. They talk in hallway for 15 minutes (me thinks she protests too much) after all, there are 3 games to choose from. Swing shift starts. 20 minutes later, tommy goes to seat 4 in game 1 with Sue in seat 2. I go totally berserk. I confront swing supervisor and tell him hes running a corrupt room. Tell him about team players and he swears he knows nothing. The day shift supervisor had given them permission to cheat at the same table, 45 minutes after I had told him about the cheating. Swing supervisor is irate and threatens to ban me, I ask for security. After security shows up, swing supervisor instructs brush to separate the team “while investigation is going on”. Im sitting in the office with supervisor and security, sue comes in all irate that they cant “temporarily” cheat in the same game. Raises hell with security and I quote “ we come here to gamble together”. Swing supervisor pleads with her to change tables temporarily. Security asks her to leave. She refuses. Security calls for backup, they “trespass’ her. Tell her she must leave the property immediately. Calls for backup to escort her off property. She racks up and waits for tommy to rackup and they leave together before rest of security arrives. I file a written complaint with security. They don’t understand poker nor do they understand the concepts of team play.

To my dear friends in wpdg who asked me the following:

“Why don’t they just look at the tapes and ban the crooks” here is your answer directly from the day shift supervisor (name available upon request).
“ We don’t have time to look at the tapes” (after all the cheating was going on in my poker room during my shift- my comments)The teams do bring in more rake for the room.

To my dear friends in WPDG who asked me.
“why don’t you report the cheating to the supervisor”
Because telling a corrupt supervisor that he’s running a crooked room accomplishes nothing. 45 minutes after reporting the team cheating to him, the team was sitting at the same table playing together again.

This time, I went one step further though. I called the Nevada Gaming Control board and reported the cheating team and Bellagio supervisor actions to the Chief Investigator.

The poker gods smiled nicely on the cheaters. Tommy lost over $2000 in my game before moving to sues table. He’s actually a pretty poor player without his accomplice.
I was told by security that taking pictures of cheating teams is illegal and I could be barred permanently from the belagio if I publish them.

edited to change title so allegations are not presented as a fact on the front page- RR
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  #2  
Old 11-09-2007, 05:51 AM
ShaneP ShaneP is offline
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Default Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room

[ QUOTE ]
Cheating at the Belagio Poker Room

A must move 5-10 no limit game is called on table 31 at 4pm. Tommy, a 20’ish asian sits in seat 1, an asian girl Sue sits beside him in seat 2. Whenever Tommy would get ready to fold, he would hold his cards ½ inch off the felt to signal to Sue to fold also. When he was ready to play, he would place a chip on his card which was the signal that he would raise and she would ALWAYS call.


[/ QUOTE ]

I might have missed something so I'll just try to be nice and suggest you rewrite that part...it doesn't make a whole lot of sense (an the raise later)

the sarcastic part to illustrate the point: I would think tommy's signal that he was raising was probably pretty obvious to everyone--him putting his chips in probably tipped it off. And his signal that he was going to get ready to fold? Does the 2 seat really need a signal he's about to fold? Wouldn't the actual fold give it away anyway?

not sarcastic anymore: when describing things like this, you probably want to keep arguments like that out, since that's what people might key on. If you saw this when Tommy was in the 4 seat and his partner was in the 2 seat, then you've got something. And the fact that they wanted to sit at the same table doesnt' really say too much (at least in and of itself).

Now, I wouldn't be surprised if what you're saying is true, but a lot of the evidence you provided doesn't make a lot of sense. Did the guy you spoke with see the signals in other situations...And yes, them being in the same pots all the time does seem really fishy...

Shane
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  #3  
Old 11-09-2007, 06:02 AM
Halfpoint Halfpoint is offline
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Default Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room

helluva 1st post buddy... welcome to 2p2 hehe
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  #4  
Old 11-09-2007, 06:12 AM
Taso Taso is offline
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Default Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room

[ QUOTE ]
they “trespass’ her.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying that security raped this woman?!
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  #5  
Old 11-09-2007, 06:18 AM
pococurante pococurante is offline
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Default Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room

[ QUOTE ]
Does the 2 seat really need a signal he's about to fold? Wouldn't the actual fold give it away anyway?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sue might be first to act.
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  #6  
Old 11-09-2007, 06:21 AM
Taso Taso is offline
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Default Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Does the 2 seat really need a signal he's about to fold? Wouldn't the actual fold give it away anyway?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sue might be first to act.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only when HE (whatever his name was, the cheater) is the big blind though. I think, because he was in seat 1, Sue was in seat 2. Ergo...

Also gotta wonder why he needs to let her know that he is raising, before he raises. One would think the actual raise would tip her off.
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  #7  
Old 11-09-2007, 07:09 AM
psandman psandman is offline
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Default Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room

So your theory on how they cheat is that they always pay off double except for the one hand where they bet $520 betwene them in order to win $60.
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  #8  
Old 11-09-2007, 07:37 AM
cwar cwar is offline
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Default Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room

This wouldnt surprise me at all, it meshes pretty well with what Ive heard. No personal experience in the game however.
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  #9  
Old 11-09-2007, 09:52 AM
MaxWeiss MaxWeiss is offline
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Default Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room

Rather than fill up the WPDG e-mails, although I'm sure that will happen soon enough, I will say my thought's here David.

You did the right thing by contacting the GCB, since that's the most efficient way to do something. You're 45 minutes of watching them amounts to... 30 hands at most, probably closer to 20. So "every time he raised" amounts to at most 3 or 4 times, right. Plus if she knows to always call his raise, he doesn't need to be signaling. It's only if he's on her left that any of the signals you talk about are in any way necessary.

So what we have so far is you observing, at most 4 times, a "cheating" action which is useless. Then you observe one questionable move. The one move they make, risks a combined $640 for a net win of $60. Then you observe the couple, who are "regulars" getting upset that they aren't allowed to play together, which presumably they have been able to do for a while, since they are regulars.

I think you probably have a good sense of sniffing things out, and I trust your judgment, and despite what I said, I think you are probably right that they are cheating. BUT the two important things to remember are: 1) they clearly suck at it and are very exploitable in the way they do it, and 2) as you said, Tommy also lost 2 buy ins in what must have been less than 2 hours (based on the figures you have provided) waiting for the table change.

That being said, I'm glad you contacted Gaming and are trying to make the room a fair and good place to play.

Edit: Plus, you said you DID get them barred from the property (even if they helped!). I don't see how you can be so upset about the way things went down when your evidence is slim at best.
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  #10  
Old 11-09-2007, 09:55 AM
RadGrad2005 RadGrad2005 is offline
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Default Re: Cheating at Bellagio Poker Room

Is it at all possible that two players might enjoy playing at the same table more than they would at different tables? Of course it is.

Also, as already has been noted, there is no need for a signal for folding or raising if the act of folding/raising itself will serve to communicate that.

Is a player getting upset because he/she is not allowed to move to a table where a friend is playing indicative of cheating? Is it possible that this can occur among players who are playing honestly, and not cheating? Of course, it is.

Rather than concluding that they probably just wanted to play together, which was probably more likely, you chose to believe that they were cheating based on rather illogical assertions.

It really dumbfounds me how someone can have such a lack of logical thinking. Honestly, I'm not sure why, but it also somewhat annoys and angers me. How can someone be that stupid?
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