Wow, that was racist

[Jon1000]

As for your second post, I have way less to respond to, though I did live in a Hawaii for a couple summers w/ my cousins when I was a kid.

In the quote about asian ethnocentrism I intended to say that nationalism is especially prevalent amongst more recent immigrants, and though this Asian pride and self-centeredness you describe may be real, it is under a pretty different kind of cultural bombardment and weathering in the mainland US than elsewhere. I cannot speak to guam, but I can speak to the persians and interracial marriage being a new concept in terms of acceptability (obviously not from experience but from talking w/ older folks). The Persian preference for other Persians isn't America's fault. I don't think I was trying to say anything about that, but that these attitudes are common amongst new immigrants and are not license to discriminate against them. I also think it's kind of weird to paint the conflict in a simply the persians want no part of whitey light, b/c white guys trying to marry persian immigrants couldn't have exactly been in the majority. I guess from your earlier post, I thought you were trying to say racist white comments against asians are semi ok b/c hey, asians are ethnocentric themselves.

[Blarg]

When I read last, whites were the majority in Hawaii.

[ QUOTE ]
As to the melting pot, I do agree my description of a previously homogenous US is pretty wrong and telling. BUT through the lens of recent assimilation leading to different bias, it still holds true.


[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe it's late at night, but I'm not sure I understand this.

[ QUOTE ]
Culturally speaking, Irish and Italians as full citizens have been a part of the US for a far longer time than asians and I don't think you can ignore this fact.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't, and agree. I think it is extremely telling that there is a virtual black-out of Asians from American entertainment, for one. Even 35 years after Bruce Lee, they still appear almost entirely in kung fu films, which seems ridiculous to me. While blacks are statistically over-represented in American t.v., Asians are virtually nowhere to be found. The best we can get is maybe some cute Asian chick. But Asians in general, and Asian men in particular, are bizarrely absent from representation in American films and t.v. I don't think that's an accident; I think it is prejudice.

[ QUOTE ]
Culturally speaking it doesn't make sense to lump all of white america together, but in the privilege they have in blending in better b/c of longer history in the US and physical similarities, it does. I'm not trying to belittle the Irish and Italian assimilation experience, only outline that it is at its conclusion and the Asian one is not.


[/ QUOTE ]

It never does. It is not right to tar and feather people with the crimes of their ancestors, especially when the ancestors are not even their own. I am a first generation European, for instance. I feel no guilt regarding African slavery under American rule 157 years ago, and think it is absurd and offensive that I should. It's a terrible and atavistic thing to be held accountable for what happened before one was even born; even more so when the ancestors one would be held responsible for are not even one's own! Let's get cultural/mystical for a moment here: In the ancestor-centered Confucian and Buddhist traditions of the east, especially, how could it not be understood that ancestors should not be maligned, and that bad karma cannot accrue without individual choice?

I agree that being accepted as American is harder for Asians than for Italians and Irish in the present day.

But I think it is eerie and somewhat fascinating how little of a burden it is to be Asian in these days, when so many minorities have suffered so long, and some suffer still. Right now, many Asian stereotypes are positive. Who on earth could have expected that for any minority during the centuries long parade of minorities disembarking on our shores?

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
As for your second post, I have way less to respond to, though I did live in a Hawaii for a couple summers w/ my cousins when I was a kid.

In the quote about asian ethnocentrism I intended to say that nationalism is especially prevalent amongst more recent immigrants, and though this Asian pride and self-centeredness you describe may be real, it is under a pretty different kind of cultural bombardment and weathering in the mainland US than elsewhere. I cannot speak to guam, but I can speak to the persians and interracial marriage being a new concept in terms of acceptability (obviously not from experience but from talking w/ older folks). The Persian preference for other Persians isn't America's fault. I don't think I was trying to say anything about that, but that these attitudes are common amongst new immigrants and are not license to discriminate against them. I also think it's kind of weird to paint the conflict in a simply the persians want no part of whitey light, b/c white guys trying to marry persian immigrants couldn't have exactly been in the majority. I guess from your earlier post, I thought you were trying to say racist white comments against asians are semi ok b/c hey, asians are ethnocentric themselves.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I never said that. For what it's worth, my brother is Vietnamese, my sister is Thai, and another brother is half-Hawaiian, half-Guamanian. As far as I know, I have nothing against them, least of all from their race.

Regarding Persians, I was talking about one ethnicity recoiling, without reason, from another, due to severe prejudice.

(Made all the more ironic because it was prejudice against the citizens of the very country they came to seeking shelter when their own country started going crazy. (Made even more ironic because they kinda got what was coming to them.))

None of that had to do with marrying anybody. Persians at that time wouldn't even let Americans speak to them, especially Persian female. It was extremely creepy, to say the least. I think it pretty clearly falls under the heading of absolutely shameful. Maybe if we were an enemy country, I'd be more flexible on that, but shameful seems about the fairest and most graceful way it could be put without dissembling.

[Jon1000]

The more we talk the more I think we're actually in agreement over the majority of this stuff, excepting that I think grouping whites in the US in terms of racial acceptance in 2007 is a pretty valid thing to do.

Whites are the majority of Hawaii at 35. But Asians account for 25 and mixed bloods for 20. Most of these mixed bloods are considered asian w/o even bringing native hawaiians into the equation at about 10. So, I guess it's sort of up in the air, but on the ground, I think most people would say Asians are in the majority. And even if they are not by a few percent, I was originally implying that Hawaii's unique racial make-up creates a different social dynamic where actual systematic racism against whites is possible. Whereas on the mainland, there's different stuff going on.

In the part that was unclear I was saying that I acknowledge that talking about the US pre 65 as completely homogenous is wrong and I was off base. However, as far as I know, US anti Asian immigration legislation that was repealed around the same time was not visited upon Asians by a specific racial group of white americans. it was fairly ubiquitous for the preceding century. so I think it's important to remember that America, consisting of 89 percent whites was collectively legislating against a fraction of one percent of Asians coming to the US and gaining citizenship for nearly 100 years.

lastly, your hollywood referencing has a lot to do w/ why these little social slights seem more aggravating to me as an asian than some people. The asian as a stereotype is not cool, is effeminate, and not going to be the hero in the public eye. It puts a little bit of a chip on your shoulder, especially when it comes to letting a drunk twenty something demean you in front of a friend. No, it's not a huge deal at all. But it's not just about the specific incident.

[Jon1000]

Though the political asylum makes the persian case more ironic, i don't think intense xenophobia amongst really new immigrants is uncommon. Particularly w/ 1st generation east asian immigrants, marriage to a white american is going to be met w/ resistance. I think w/ increasing time and assimilation, these isolationist practices go away, and I think Asians in the US, given another generation and a half will be far more assimilated and lose a lot of the foreign nationalism/ethnocentrism.

if this was real life, i'm pretty sure this is where i'd give you a pound and go to bed. you type too fast and i am tired.

[JoeSchmo]

[ QUOTE ]
So I'm in the parking garage looking for a spot when a group of people walk in front of my car taking up all the driving space so i go slowly behind them waiting for them to move out of the way. this goes on for like 20 seconds ...

[/ QUOTE ]

After reading the subject, I was stunned to find out the offending girls were not black.

[jws43yale]

I have read and scanned most of this thread and find the expected social conditioning in almost all posts. We have had a thread in OOT making fun of WAPSs (of which I am one save for 1/16 Native American) and Guidos. But if we had a post that said look at the stupid black guys (with a more derogatory term used), people would have blown up. Society has conditioned us that some groups are ok to make fun of and others aren't I know this conditioning primarily comes from historical precedent. Even so why it is that if a black person calls me a cracker or talks about "how white" it is no big deal, but if I did the same it is much different.

The same people who are overly PC about racism and sexism actually are just as bad. They have no problem being derogatory to WASP's, and although society says this is fine, someone who is truly not racist would not feel the need to treat anyone different.

Last I just want to say that I still feel a majority of real "racism" is based on socioeconomic status and all the things that go with it (affluence, intelligence, etc.). I have friends of all races who I respect. There are also people of all races who I do not respect (e.g. white trash and the unmentionables). Would I ever openly use the n-word, no way, but to me it means the exact same as white trash applied to a different race. There probably still is something wrong with drawing these lines at all along race, but ultimately, race is not what matters to me, it is the ability to be intelligent, well-spoken, and an upstanding person.

[LetItBe]

Walking to the Rockies game on Monday, and a guy on the corner is selling tickets, yelling "tickets! tickets!" I am walking behind a group of younger guys who are Hispanic. Ticket guy sees them walking and starts yelling...in Spanish! The guys were like "hey, wtf?" and the scalper tried to pass it off as a joke. They were not happy.

[mosdef]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why do I have a feeling that you don't live in an area with a significant native population?

Racism against Natives is massive, probably worse than any other group in North America.

[/ QUOTE ]

What a weird claim. The vast majority of people I know never interact with Native Canadians. I don't think they have any views of Natives, one way or the other. I don't see "massive" racist behaviour towards Natives because I don't see any kind of behaviour at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF? You live in Toronto? You haven't heard about any interactions with Natives?

In the past year we have had Natives blockading numerous places in the province. Shutting down rail lines. Protesting in various places. If you haven't heard views expressed about Natives you're living with your head in the ground.

[/ QUOTE ]

You misinterpretted my post. I said that most of the people I know have no interaction with natives. And they don't. This is not the same as saying I have never heard of any interactions with natives happening anywhere.

My point is not that there are NO interactions between natives and other races in Canada, it's that there are very few interactions between natives and other races in Canada compared to, say, east asians. I can't believe that racism against natives is "worse than any other group in North America" when they barely interact with other groups at all.

[skunkworks]

jws,

You have some serious mental retardation and are apparently totally clueless about social issues (like racism) outside of what you see six inches in front of your nose. You act like racism is a level playing field where making fun of WASPs is equal to the sort of institutionalized, state-sponsored discrimination that has occurred against minorities, or, perhaps more relevant to what we see today, calling black people [censored].

Edited it back in since gump already quoted me. I stand by what I said, but I might have read a bit too much into what jws was saying.