Official argue about all things Barry Bonds GOAT thread

[manbearpig]

And also, just for kicks, that Sheffield quotes seems pretty damning. If you know, you believe that he really said that and meant it.

[RedBean]

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Yes, I think someone who used certain substances in a certain time period were certainly cheating in a spirit of the rules sense but not in a punishable sense.


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You mean the "spirit of the rules" as you wish they had been?

This isn't an issue of the spirit/letter of the law, considering that a policy against steroids didn't even exist, so it's hard to go against the spirit of something that didn't exist.

It's not as if I am interpreting the policy differently than you, and we arguing the semantics of spirit versus letter.....the policy was non-existent until the 2003 season.

That said, what "rule" do you think pre-2003 steroid use "against the spirit" of?


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Retroactive punishment is a dumb ass idea.


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Says the guy who thinks Bonds cheated a rule from 1996-2002 that wasn't in effect until 2003.

Sweet...

[RedBean]

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One more time....in case you missed it again.

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Still waiting.....if you are not going to answer just say you aren't. That would be fine. But I think it would add to the discussion. Personal opinions shape arguments.


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Nevermind that I answered it, and you just weren't happy with the answer you got.



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Please point out where you answered this:



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RedBean,

What percentage chance do you assign to a random player from the years 1996 to 2003 of ever using a PED?

What percentage chance do you assign Barry Bonds from the years 1996 to 2003 of ever using a PED?

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What are you referring to when you mean PED?

Are we talking illegal PED's? Non-prescription?

Are we talking over the counter ones?

Are we talking purely illegal steroids?

Or are we talking anything that can be classified as a PED?

Narrow it down here, as you've been known to shift the goalpoasts on the definition of what you originally ask once you get an answer, and then twist it into something that isn't applicable. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

"PED" means different things to different people...let's nail down what we mean here, and then I'm happy to answer....but not before that, as you're propensity to run amok with false assertions makes me cautious.

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Any substance that has been deemed illegal to buy/sell without the proper prescription, or a substance that is performance enhancing and is illegal in any sense, prescription or not.

That work?

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I have to admit, I am getting a kick out of you growing angry and reposting the same question every third post, insisting that I answer it, despite me already answering it and you not being satisfied with it.

Like MikeyPatriot already posted, I don't quite understand your obsession with getting me to answer it to your satisfaction...lol...other than you think it may be "telling".

But just to be clear, is this what you want answered: (consolidated to include the definition of PED)

What percentage chance do you assign to a random player from the years 1996 to 2003 of ever using any substance that has been deemed illegal to buy/sell without the proper prescription, or a substance that is performance enhancing and is illegal in any sense, prescription or not?

and

What percentage chance do you assign to a Barry Bonds from the years 1996 to 2003 of ever using any substance that has been deemed illegal to buy/sell without the proper prescription, or a substance that is performance enhancing and is illegal in any sense, prescription or not?

[RedBean]

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And also, just for kicks, that Sheffield quotes seems pretty damning. If you know, you believe that he really said that and meant it.

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I find it odd that you assign instant credibility to Sheff's comments because you think they support your assertions....

Yet, you deny credibility to Victor Conte and Greg Anderson, who both testified that while they gave steroids to many athletes, they did not provide them to Bonds.

Not to mention that despite an offer of immunity and secrecy, Bonds denied recieving steroids from Greg.

But....all that aside....and even assuming Sheff's credibility....what does it really tell us that is damning?

Let's examine it:

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...I know I've seen Greg give Barry the same thing I was taking," Sheffield said. "I didn't see him taking those red beans , but I seen him taking this (clear) and this cream here."


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1. Sheff says he recieved the same thing Barry did, a clear and cream substance.

Greg testified on Sept 3, 2003, that he gave steroids to his "little guys", Benito Santiago, Armando Rios, Marvin Benard, and Bobby Estella.

He never mentioned giving steroids to Barry Bonds or Gary Sheffield.

Greg, in fact, testified that Barry Bonds had never taken "the clear" or "the cream".

The only thing "damning" with this statement is that, for all we know, Sheff and Bonds both recieved flaxseed oil and arthritic balm from Greg.

2. Sheff says he never saw Barry taking "red beans".

Not very damning, considering this would be exculpatory.

3. Sheff says he saw Bonds taking a clear substance, and a cream substance.

Did Sheff see Bonds taking flaxseed oil and arthritic balm?

Even Sheff says he doesn't know, and he isn't sure.

Yet, you think it is "damning" because you project your opinion that you WANT it to be steroids, rather than looking at it objectively.

Funny how that works...huh?

[RedBean]

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Also, please tell me your name is based on the Mexican steroid. I dont know why I didnt catch it before a couple days ago but that is awesome.

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Not even close.

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http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1937594

From the article:

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...I know I've seen Greg give Barry the same thing I was taking," Sheffield said. "I didn't see him taking those red beans , but I seen him taking this (clear) and this cream here."

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I still don't quite get this one....are you saying that my name really is based on the mexican steroid, and that I'm lying when I tell you it isn't?

Or do you really think you're the first person in the last 4 years to notice that my name is also used as a slang term for an illicit substance and find it ironic when we're discussing Bonds?

Usually the others pointed it out in passing, and didn't make it a central point of their argument...quoting it several times in knee-slapping glee.

I mean, seriously.

[MDoranD]

People who use italics as much as you do put me on tilt.


Ballplayers dont usually just go from base knocking smallish guys to giant huge-head home run hitters well past the time their body should have started slowing down.

If defenders of Barry Bonds want to say "u cant prove he used" then fine. Youre right, we dont have a urine sample thats hot with steroids.

Regardless, everyone whos not a blind Barry Bonds fan can see that hes been on steroids the same way a mother can tell their kid is on drugs. They dont need a piss test, the proofs is the pudding. Big head, oversized unnatural muscles, increased longevity, players/teammates calling him out, hanging out with trainers who provide steroids...ugh the list goes on and on ad nauseum.


Give it up, the guy used steroids.


Anyways let the man have his home run record since it wasnt "against the rules" to use them back then. Nice work finding a hole in the rulebook Barry.

I like how he says he "wont go in the HOF" if that ball with the asterisk on it is in there. He apparently assumes that he would be elected in the first place.

[MikeyPatriot]

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Ballplayers dont usually just go from base knocking smallish guys to giant huge-head home run hitters well past the time their body should have started slowing down.

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Home Runs
1988 NL-24-9
1990 NL-33-4
1992 NL-34-2
1993 NL-46-1
1994 NL-37-3
1995 NL-33-4
1996 NL-42-2
1997 NL-40-4
1998 NL-37-9
2000 NL-49-2
2001 NL-73-1
2002 NL-46-2
2003 NL-45-2
2004 NL-45-4

Oops, Barry's been a consistent HR hitter for his entire career.

[bottomset]

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Ballplayers dont usually just go from base knocking smallish guys

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wait you are talking about Barry Bonds?

the guy had a .677slg in 93, .647 in 94 after 1990 never below .514, and only twice below .575(90,91)

I think you are thinking of someone else, redbean has destroyed the rest of your [censored] post many times

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He apparently assumes that he would be elected in the first place

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lol

[MDoranD]

i never said he didnt hit HRs. i mean obv he did, or whats the point of using all those steroids? the point is, it made him grow in FREAKISHLY UNCOMMON WAYS. Since he hasnt claimed to have elephantitis of the head, its pretty clear to the non-san francisco crowd whats happening.

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redbean has destroyed the rest of your [censored] post many times


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in your eyes maybe. however i suspect you didnt require much convincing.


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He apparently assumes that he would be elected in the first place



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if u think its a given thats fine. its pretty obvious from every roadtrip that the average baseball fan / media does not agree with you. Thats fairly important in making the HOF.

[RedBean]

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People who use italics as much as you do put me on tilt.


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Sorry.

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Ballplayers dont usually just go from base knocking smallish guys to giant huge-head home run hitters well past the time their body should have started slowing down.


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What age do you think elite ballplayers should start slowing down?

Fun Fact: The last 5 position players inducted into the Hall of Fame, and 7 of the last 10, have seen an INCREASE in their HR rate after age 35, when comparing the 5 season from ages 30-34 to 35-39.

Oops...

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Regardless, everyone whos not a blind Barry Bonds fan can see that hes been on steroids the same way a mother can tell their kid is on drugs.


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Speaking of mother's intuition....I had a chance to sit with Bond's mom, Patricia, at a Giants game in Atlanta in 2006, the one where he hit #726 & #727 off Hudson. She was there with her granddaughter, Bond's daughter.

She was an unassuming, normal lady, and unless you already knew, you'd never guess she was Bond's mom. You'd think she was at a little league game to cheer along her 11-year old son, with her cheap camera snapping candid photos, etc.

Before his first at-bat, while in the on-deck circle, a group of drunks about 15 rows back were shouting all manner of nasty stuff, and you could see the pain in her face as she muttered "it's not right."....and then he he came to the plate, he drove one over the center field fence....she cheered, and turned to me and said "THAT is why they don't like him....because of that right there."

And you know what? She was right. Good call on the mother's intuition.

BTW...the year previous, I got to sit with the Niekro brothers....and Phil Niekro is an absolute pimp. ABSOLUTE P-I-M-P.

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Big head, oversized unnatural muscles, increased longevity,

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Big head? Hmmm...

Next time you're in Cooperstown, check out their display on the helmets Bonds wore when he hit 755 & 756.

They are size 7 3/8.

Oops...