2 interesting $400 PLO8 hands

[PorkPieHat]

Ok, hand one is probably a push at this point because if you are going to play [censored] like that then you deserve what you get when you flop a 'monster'. Dave does not want preflop discussion here, but he probably deserves preflop berating, lol.

At first glance I thought hand 2 is an easy fold, and 2 dimes backs me up. Here's the possible worst case:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3973247
pokenum -o8 ac 9c 4h 5h - kc kd qs jh - ah 2h 5c 6s -- 8c ks 3s
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 666 enumerated boards containing Ks 3s 8c
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ac 9c 5h 4h 28 52 614 0 96 371 9 0.117
Qs Kc Kd Jh 187 563 103 0 0 0 0 0.563
6s 5c Ah 2h 43 51 615 0 371 96 9 0.320

Here's something better:
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3973248
pokenum -o8 ac 9c 4h 5h - kc kd qs jh - ah 4d 3c 8s -- 8c ks 3s
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 666 enumerated boards containing Ks 3s 8c
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ac 9c 5h 4h 24 73 582 11 126 0 387 0.301
Qs Kc Kd Jh 148 579 87 0 0 0 0 0.546
8s 3c 4d Ah 2 3 652 11 0 48 387 0.153

And here's the likely best you can hope for based on the betting:
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3973250
pokenum -o8 ac 9c 4h 5h - kc kd qs jh - ah 3d 3c 8s -- 8c ks 3s
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 666 enumerated boards containing Ks 3s 8c
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ac 9c 5h 4h 87 88 578 0 521 0 9 0.463
Qs Kc Kd Jh 117 541 125 0 0 0 0 0.494
8s 3c 3d Ah 16 37 629 0 0 120 9 0.043

I'm not sure how often you can expect to see something like set over set with no reasonable low draws with this action. Even if you put BB on just a random A2 hand cuz he's short, what do you expect UTG to have that you beat? 2 pair? Ok, let's give him that:
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3973261
pokenum -o8 ac 9c 4h 5h - kc 8d qs jh - ah 2d 3c 8s -- 8c ks 3s
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 666 enumerated boards containing Ks 3s 8c
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ac 9c 5h 4h 52 91 575 0 158 355 0 0.191
Qs Kc 8d Jh 120 456 210 0 0 0 0 0.432
8s 3c 2d Ah 75 119 547 0 355 58 0 0.376

Now you could pull the shorty out of the equation when discussing the side pot with UTG, and if you think he sucks that hard then you're ok vs 2 pair w/no low obviously:
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3973274
pokenum -o8 ac 9c 4h 5h - kc 8d qs jh -- 8c ks 3s
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing Ks 3s 8c
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ac 9c 5h 4h 151 151 669 0 630 0 0 0.484
Qs Kc 8d Jh 178 669 151 0 0 0 0 0.516

Of course, OK means that you aren't a huge dog, just a tiny one. Either way, fold imo.

[howzit]

pork pie hat, the suits in the twodimes sim are wrong.

dave has spades buddy.

[PorkPieHat]

[ QUOTE ]
pork pie hat, the suits in the twodimes sim are wrong.

dave has spades buddy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Crap, I suck at copy/paste. Gimme a few mins to re-edit.

[PorkPieHat]

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3973643
pokenum -o8 as 9s 4h 5h - kc kd qs jh - ah 2h 5c 6s -- 8c ks 3s
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 666 enumerated boards containing Ks 3s 8c
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As 9s 5h 4h 62 167 499 0 96 371 9 0.214
Qs Kc Kd Jh 172 468 198 0 0 0 0 0.480
6s 5c Ah 2h 27 31 635 0 371 96 9 0.305

Ok, minor difference here, still sucks IMO.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3973645
pokenum -o8 as 9s 4h 5h - kc kd qs jh - ah 4d 3c 8s -- 8c ks 3s
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 666 enumerated boards containing Ks 3s 8c
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As 9s 5h 4h 69 206 454 6 126 0 387 0.410
Qs Kc Kd Jh 133 451 215 0 0 0 0 0.438
8s 3c 4d Ah 2 3 657 6 0 48 387 0.151

Little better here but still sucky.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3973648
pokenum -o8 as 9s 4h 5h - kc kd qs jh - ah 3d 3c 8s -- 8c ks 3s
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 666 enumerated boards containing Ks 3s 8c
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As 9s 5h 4h 216 221 445 0 521 0 9 0.574
Qs Kc Kd Jh 102 408 258 0 0 0 0 0.383
8s 3c 3d Ah 16 37 629 0 0 120 9 0.043

Now we go from 50/50 to 60/40. Still pretty much the best you're gonna see imo.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3973649
pokenum -o8 as 9s 4h 5h - kc 8d qs jh - ah 2d 3c 8s -- 8c ks 3s
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 666 enumerated boards containing Ks 3s 8c
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As 9s 5h 4h 97 230 436 0 158 355 0 0.309
Qs Kc 8d Jh 102 331 335 0 0 0 0 0.325
8s 3c 2d Ah 67 105 561 0 355 58 0 0.366

OK, if 2 pr was Dave's read then he is still a dog with no fold equity.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3973655
pokenum -o8 as 9s 4h 5h - kc 8d qs jh -- 8c ks 3s
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing Ks 3s 8c
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As 9s 5h 4h 309 309 511 0 630 0 0 0.593
Qs Kc 8d Jh 157 511 309 0 0 0 0 0.407

Again, 60/40 at best.

I don't see this ('this' being the correction of my earlier moronity) changing my opinion on call/fold. The interesting thing is how the spade draw only adds 10% equity to the first couple of sims. To be a fav in this spot vs anyone reasonable you need to have the only live low draw, which I don't see happening often enough to be profitable.

[Mendacious]

[ QUOTE ]
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3973643
pokenum -o8 as 9s 4h 5h - kc kd qs jh - ah 2h 5c 6s -- 8c ks 3s
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 666 enumerated boards containing Ks 3s 8c
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As 9s 5h 4h 62 167 499 0 96 371 9 0.214
Qs Kc Kd Jh 172 468 198 0 0 0 0 0.480
6s 5c Ah 2h 27 31 635 0 371 96 9 0.305

Ok, minor difference here, still sucks IMO.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3973645
pokenum -o8 as 9s 4h 5h - kc kd qs jh - ah 4d 3c 8s -- 8c ks 3s
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 666 enumerated boards containing Ks 3s 8c
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As 9s 5h 4h 69 206 454 6 126 0 387 0.410
Qs Kc Kd Jh 133 451 215 0 0 0 0 0.438
8s 3c 4d Ah 2 3 657 6 0 48 387 0.151

Little better here but still sucky.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3973648
pokenum -o8 as 9s 4h 5h - kc kd qs jh - ah 3d 3c 8s -- 8c ks 3s
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 666 enumerated boards containing Ks 3s 8c
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As 9s 5h 4h 216 221 445 0 521 0 9 0.574
Qs Kc Kd Jh 102 408 258 0 0 0 0 0.383
8s 3c 3d Ah 16 37 629 0 0 120 9 0.043

Now we go from 50/50 to 60/40. Still pretty much the best you're gonna see imo.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3973649
pokenum -o8 as 9s 4h 5h - kc 8d qs jh - ah 2d 3c 8s -- 8c ks 3s
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 666 enumerated boards containing Ks 3s 8c
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As 9s 5h 4h 97 230 436 0 158 355 0 0.309
Qs Kc 8d Jh 102 331 335 0 0 0 0 0.325
8s 3c 2d Ah 67 105 561 0 355 58 0 0.366

OK, if 2 pr was Dave's read then he is still a dog with no fold equity.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3973655
pokenum -o8 as 9s 4h 5h - kc 8d qs jh -- 8c ks 3s
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing Ks 3s 8c
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As 9s 5h 4h 309 309 511 0 630 0 0 0.593
Qs Kc 8d Jh 157 511 309 0 0 0 0 0.407

Again, 60/40 at best.

I don't see this ('this' being the correction of my earlier moronity) changing my opinion on call/fold. The interesting thing is how the spade draw only adds 10% equity to the first couple of sims. To be a fav in this spot vs anyone reasonable you need to have the only live low draw, which I don't see happening often enough to be profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

The way I read this, it is still a borderline decision. This would be dependent on the style you were playing and what range you think people would be shoving with.

[SapphireMoon]

Sorry can't avoid mentioning pre-flop selection.
Interesting predicaments.

Hand 1: Shouldn't have been in the pot period much less call a re-raise but what's done is done. But since you're in. I like the pot bet on flop but MP2 another limper / caller of massive preflop raise is the aggressor here. 78 unlikely for the made st8 (not totally out as he made an isolation play to move Button out) but I suspect that MP2 might have AQKJ for a massive re-draw or Ax10 10. You left out what the Button did. Two opponents or one. Eh, either way I would fold.

Hand 2: Love the pockets.
I would have re-raised on flop - don't get greedy isolate UTG - or maybe take it down now. You have nut flush draw and decent low cards. At this point there are no st8 draws. What a sweet flop for your hand. The all-in and re-raises are often A2-ers (maybe a set but silly re-raises with lows and flush draws possibilities). So PUSH PUSH PUSH.

My two cents. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[Mendacious]

A little more thought on hand 2>

I think you have to assume that UTG has a high hand that will beat you unless you hit your flush AND I would suspect that your low-- if it comes probably is not good-- and even if it is good against UTG, it might not come. I think you have to treat this hand almost as you would a high only hand, and I think UTG has practically priced you out of the hand.

Certainly forgivable if you call, but I think fold is probably more correct.