2/4 B&M - Villain keeps donking into my overpair

[gobbledygeek]

2/4 B&M, 10 handed, not quite as loose as usual but quite passive (this is the largest pot of the night)

Cliff Note Summary: If all signs point to me being behind and needing to improve to win, is there any point to raising out other opponents on the turn in a big pot?

I've never played against SB (Villain) before; the only thing I've noticed so far about him is that he's playing pretty much every hand.

Preflop (10 players): Hero is UTG+1 with Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG calls, Hero raises, UTG+3 calls, MP2 (loose gambooler) 3bets all-in, MP3 calls, SB (Villain) calls, BB folds, UTG folds, Hero caps, UTG+3 calls, MP3 calls, SB calls

Flop (4 players + 1 all-in, 21 SB): T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
SB bets, Hero raises, UTG+3 calls, MP3 folds, SB 3bets, Hero caps, UTG+3 calls

Turn (3 players + 1 all-in, 15 BB): 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
SB bets, Hero raises...

With SB continuing to donk into me, I kinda get the feeling I'm behind to two pair (which I have 8 outs on) or a set (which I only have 2 outs on); best case situation (but I'm thinking unlikely) is that I'm up against JJ, Tx or chopping with QQ. What is the typical plan of attack here? With UTG+3 still in the hand do I still have to raise the turn due to being vulnerable to A's and K's? My plan was to raise the turn and then take the free showdown if offered one, is that correct? If SB donks again on the river I think I have to call UI given the pot size, correct?

GcluelessnoobG

[mikeca]

At B&M 2/4 the players are so erratic it is hard to know where you stand. The SB is playing almost every hand, but how does he play? Aggressive? Passive?

What to do here depends on your read of SB. It is possible the SB thinks you are on AK and his one pair is ahead of you, but his betting pattern looks more like a set or two pair. I would not raise the turn and just call him down, unless the river is a Q. Find out what he played like this. I would never lay this down to an unknown on that board.

[Yads]

You've taken a really strong line so unless he's a maniac (which is entirely possible) you're toast.

[Aces McGee]

Guys, you're missing the question that gobbledygeek is asking. He said in his post that he's pretty sure he's behind. He's asking if it's worth another raise on the turn to try to drive out the third player in the hand.

-McGee

[jesse8888]

[ QUOTE ]
Guys, you're missing the question that gobbledygeek is asking. He said in his post that he's pretty sure he's behind. He's asking if it's worth another raise on the turn to try to drive out the third player in the hand.

-McGee

[/ QUOTE ]

Supposing the donker has T9 and the other guy still in the hand has just has one of the other pairs, a raise only buys you 2 outs. Two outs won't come in often enough to justify unless the pot is HUGE (even bigger than this one).

It's more complicated with the possible free showdown though, and the all in gamboolin man. I'd just call down here, overall, but I wouldn't like it much. I think a raise is close.

Curiously, I have not raised on the turn in my last 9+ hours of live 6/12 play, so I might not be the best one to listen to here.

[KenProspero]

Ugh, Yes, I think you're probably behind.

At this point, I'd probably call it down. Even considering it's 2-4.

[One Outer]

I think we need a better read on Villain.

Given what we have, yeah, you're behind sometimes. Remember , though, at these stakes if he caught a second pair or straight on the turn an ordinary 2/4 player would be more likely to go for the c/r IMO. Same for a set, which for an ordinary player probably wouldn't even bet the flop. IMO, this is A6, 98, JT fairly often. This looks like a T putting you on AK to me. Even so, I'm probably just calling if he donks the river after you put in the turn raise. I don't hate the raise completely because I think some of the other posters may be overestimating your opponents range.

Players at those stakes put preflop raisers on AK automatically as a general rule. Sometimes they'll bet small pocket pairs, weak top pairs and even complete air into a preflop raiser because of this. I had a similar hand at live 6/12 the other day (except I had KK) where a guy donked into me twice on a 9 high, no flush draw board. After I raised the flop and turn on him he just c/c the river and showed me 22. And of course, like always, they say "I put you on AK."

Also, someone above said that you only buy two outs with a raise here? Really? If villain has T9 you have 8 outs. I don't get it.

So the moral of the story is you can't fold and you're good more often than you think.

You should never, ever, ever fold on that board unless the other guy shows serious power.

[Crusher19]

i think your line is good raising flop and turn if you improve river bet it if not and you feel chance your beat then check, but i think you're good

[Yepitis]

I am not at all tring to be rude here but I am going to call this the way it see it.

You have had this guy donk out on you as you said and now you feel like you never have the best hand. If you let this be known to the table this guy or any other good players are going to attack you with any pair or any decent draw.


I think you played the hand well, I would raise the turn and if the river was a blank I would bet for vaule in case the guy who is all in is the only one that can beat me. If i get raised and reraised I muck my hand move on.

I had this same situation with top pair and a flush draw on the flop. I'm putting in as many chips as possible until the river is a blank for me. Make a crying call only to get it raised and reraised before it gets back to me and I fold dreaming about the pot I could have won...