live 6/12, 87s from BB

[Hyperrrprank]

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I think this is right, but it's the exception to the rule. I'm just allergic to the idea of calling two cold with middle pair/no kicker OOP in general.

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Edit that to add "calling two cold with middle pair/no kicker OOP and not closing the action"

[One Outer]

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I think this is right, but it's the exception to the rule. I'm just allergic to the idea of calling two cold with middle pair/no kicker OOP in general.

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Edit that to add "calling two cold with middle pair/no kicker OOP and not closing the action"

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good point. teach me to not suck at posting.

[jesse8888]

Meh, OK. So this is a situation where in my live game I take a second and see if I can get a read on what MP1 is going to do. Often times he'll have already cut off 2 bets from his stack and practically be shoving them into the pot.

Readless, I'm almost always calling here. If MP1 is much more likely to 3-bet than your standard 6/12 player, then I can fold. But if he's a standard "i never 3 bet" kind of guy I like the call still.

[JJH3984]

Um... this is a fold. Is the world insane? You don't have 6 outs here when its bet and raised in a passive live game. Plus, as others have said, you aren't closing the action and if it get threebet you definantly don't have 6 outs.

[One Outer]

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Um... this is a fold. Is the world insane? You don't have 6 outs here when its bet and raised in a passive live game. Plus, as others have said, you aren't closing the action and if it get threebet you definantly don't have 6 outs.

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Christ. This is so frusturating. This is where I started and now I'm back there again. It's like I'm incapable of thinking for myself. I'm terrified of looking stupid. This puts me on life tilt.

[Hyperrrprank]

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Um... this is a fold. Is the world insane? You don't have 6 outs here when its bet and raised in a passive live game. Plus, as others have said, you aren't closing the action and if it get threebet you definantly don't have 6 outs.

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Christ. This is so frusturating. This is where I started and now I'm back there again. It's like I'm incapable of thinking for myself. I'm terrified of looking stupid. This puts me on life tilt.

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Here's some math if it makes you feel better. If we assume we've got 5 outs or thereabouts, that we'll fold the turn if we miss, but will win 3 extra big bets if we hit, we only need to assume approx. a 10% chance we'll get 3-bet & capped before our call has an EV of less than half of a small bet. This ignores the times we'll hit our hand and lose to a redraw or bigger hand at showdown, and anything we make here is vulnerable.

.6 =(26*0.1)+(-2*0.8)+(-4*0.1)

There are plenty of assumptions in here, but anything we can imagine to make this call worth more can be balanced by similar imaginings to make it much worse. Add in a 2% chance that we hit a hand but lose to something else (costing an average of 5SB more before we showdown the loser) and you get

-.02 =(26*0.08)+(-5*0.02)+(-2*0.8)+(-4*0.1)

[One Outer]

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Um... this is a fold. Is the world insane? You don't have 6 outs here when its bet and raised in a passive live game. Plus, as others have said, you aren't closing the action and if it get threebet you definantly don't have 6 outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Christ. This is so frusturating. This is where I started and now I'm back there again. It's like I'm incapable of thinking for myself. I'm terrified of looking stupid. This puts me on life tilt.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's some math if it makes you feel better. If we assume we've got 5 outs or thereabouts, that we'll fold the turn if we miss, but will win 3 extra big bets if we hit, we only need to assume approx. a 10% chance we'll get 3-bet & capped before our call has an EV of less than half of a small bet. This ignores the times we'll hit our hand and lose to a redraw or bigger hand at showdown, and anything we make here is vulnerable.

.6 =(26*0.1)+(-2*0.8)+(-4*0.1)

There are plenty of assumptions in here, but anything we can imagine to make this call worth more can be balanced by similar imaginings to make it much worse. Add in a 2% chance that we hit a hand but lose to something else (costing an average of 5SB more before we showdown the loser) and you get

-.02 =(26*0.08)+(-5*0.02)+(-2*0.8)+(-4*0.1)

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Dude. I don't understand any of that. At all. Plz simplify for the retarded among us, okthenthx.

[jesse8888]

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Um... this is a fold. Is the world insane? You don't have 6 outs here when its bet and raised in a passive live game. Plus, as others have said, you aren't closing the action and if it get threebet you definantly don't have 6 outs.

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Just a question...where was it said that this game was passive?

[Frond]

Preflop-I would save any raises with this hand for the CO and BTn or sometimes the HJ to mix things up a bit.

BTW, I go ahead and bet out sometimes on these flops cause that is how I roll [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img].

With 8 people seeing this flop you are going to have to improve your hand to win it and your outs aren't all clean. I stick with folding the flop as played.

Don't become one of those players(the kind we love) that calls down with any piece of any flop with any BD draw. Think twice before tossing in your chips just because you got a small piece and it is 8 ways.

PS. McC scotch does rock.