5CD MTT - Easy fold.. right?

[greggg230]

PokerStars Game #11178684025: Tournament #56065253, $5.00+$0.50 5 Card Draw Limit - Level XI (1200/2400) - 2007/07/28 - 10:03:23 (ET)
Table '56065253 11' 6-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: Freya (10750 in chips)
Seat 2: tino_nz (16655 in chips)
Seat 3: greggg230 (12565 in chips)
Seat 5: rodo1219 (15455 in chips)
Seat 6: the FC kid (555 in chips) is sitting out
greggg230: posts small blind 600
rodo1219: posts big blind 1200
*** DEALING HANDS ***
Dealt to greggg230 [K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]]
the FC kid: folds
Freya: raises 1200 to 2400
tino_nz: calls 2400
greggg230: calls 1800
rodo1219: folds
greggg230: discards 1 card [5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]]
Dealt to greggg230 [K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]] [9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]]
the FC kid is connected
the FC kid has returned
Freya: discards 3 cards
tino_nz: discards 3 cards
greggg230: checks
Freya: bets 2400
tino_nz: calls 2400
greggg230: folds


Freya is really aggressive and is raise-happy pre-flop and bet-happy post-flop. Tino is a pretty typical player, though I didn't have much experience with him.

I was going to call just Freya, but I can't overcall here, right?

[Murakawa]

Definitely can't overcall. Tino has aces up at least IMO.

[forhasta]

Just a thought ....

you could 3bet predraw here with position, and standpat after you see them both 3 draw. If one of them one draws then take your one to KK44x. They are unlikely to bet into you if they unimprove thinking you may have trips. You could save a small post-draw bet here (Or rather, you wouldnt have to find out where you were postdraw by calling). If they do bet into you, then you have to figure if its hyper-aggression of if they really have improved to trips. They are even unlikely to bet AA22x into you here. Other advantage - next time you have a standpat hand, they are more likely to call.

2nd alternative - 3bet predraw, take your one to KK44 - you still give yourself a chance to improve, and they are still unlikely to bet into you without a big hand.

Other advantage of 3 betting - if one of them draws 2, then you probably are behind trips - chuck your 44x and draw for trips.


maybe not something to do all the time, but now and then ...?

[greggg230]

[ QUOTE ]
Just a thought ....

you could 3bet predraw here with position, and standpat after you see them both 3 draw. If one of them one draws then take your one to KK44x. They are unlikely to bet into you if they unimprove thinking you may have trips. You could save a small post-draw bet here (Or rather, you wouldnt have to find out where you were postdraw by calling). If they do bet into you, then you have to figure if its hyper-aggression of if they really have improved to trips. They are even unlikely to bet AA22x into you here. Other advantage - next time you have a standpat hand, they are more likely to call.

2nd alternative - 3bet predraw, take your one to KK44 - you still give yourself a chance to improve, and they are still unlikely to bet into you without a big hand.

Other advantage of 3 betting - if one of them draws 2, then you probably are behind trips - chuck your 44x and draw for trips.


maybe not something to do all the time, but now and then ...?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm in the small-blind in this hand, so I am OOP.

I'm curious to know what others think about 3-betting this pre-flop. High two pair (QQXX-AAXX) are something I often am not sure what to do with pre-draw. I guess if a villain will raise any two pair and KK/AA, in a limit game, at least, it's worth raising. My intuition is that without a read, you should not 3-bet two pair pre-draw in a pot limit or no limit game.

[forhasta]

... sorry about that. I should read things more carefully. I may still 3bet here, but it is also player dependent. I have very limited pot limit experience, so this is a fixed thing.

[greggg230]

oh, results:

Freya showed QQ33x.
tino showed JJxxx. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

It's situations like this which really make me second-guess. I don't want to to be results-oriented, but getting better than 5:1 on my money, they have to have me beat more than one time in every six. I just wonder if that's correct in these donkaments.

[bigpooch]

From the HH, this is 5-handed LIMIT, so you ought to have
reraised with your hand from the SB. Even in a tournament,
you could reraise with jacks-up since the opener was from
the cutoff, the button didn't reraise and you want to get
the big blind out in case he has a high pair.

Since you played it the way you did, you put yourself in a
difficult spot, but you did mention the opener is too
aggressive postdraw, so he may just be bluffing off some
chips.

[Murakawa]

What? Oh for some reason I thought it was Pot Limit, lol. yeah 3 bet predraw. It hurts more when you see the pot dragged away from you and fold in this spot but an overcall is usually bad in a cash game... but it wouldn't be a problem if you had 3 bet.

A good thing to do in this situation is look at the pot odds and ask yourself how often kings up holds in this spot, then check your pot odds. If you loose it's okay if you're confident you made a +EV decision.

As for the 3 bet, I've been doing it with aces against very agro players recently and it' been working out nicely. Some people bet 100% of the time post draw, so make note of them!

[Al Mirpuri]

[ QUOTE ]
oh, results:

Freya showed QQ33x.
tino showed JJxxx. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

It's situations like this which really make me second-guess. I don't want to to be results-oriented, but getting better than 5:1 on my money, they have to have me beat more than one time in every six. I just wonder if that's correct in these donkaments.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had a really bad feeling even before I saw your results. I play five handed limit draw. These three-way situations are difficult. I usually do not make the overcall but I am so often wrong that it troubles me. I do not understand the confused smiley. The caller knew the opener to be a 'lag' and thought him betting a busted draw. His call forced you out. His call was daring and if Freya had been bluffing he would have had a lot to crow about...In limit draw this is an easier call but in your tournament you are being asked to call 20% of your stack which is a different proposition altogether. I think the advice to have three bet predraw was probably right though not as automatic as in a fixed limit cash game.