black people still not equals in america?

[NewTeaBag]

Let me see if I can turn the question around a bit.

KKF, do you feel bad that you will never be fully accepted into Thailand as Thai? That you will always be a farang no long how you live here or how respectful of Thai culture or customs your are? You and I have both chosen to make Thailand our homes. SHould we feel agrieved by this permanent "different" status?

[MrMon]

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does anyone else still feel bad that black people are not treated as equals in america?

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I do. People in this forum think if that we stick our fingers in our ears that we can make race based problems go away. The problem is, that you most definately are treated differently in this country by what color your skin is. Whether it's in the media, in court or where you live, being a minority is an excellent predictor of having a crappy life. Heck, the concensus on this forum is that Obama can't get elected because he is black.

Of course, there are two explanations for this: either you believe that minorities are inferior or that forces outside their control have led to this. I believe the latter.

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I would agree that some outside forces have led to some imbalances, but that is not the whole picture. What outside forces have led to the result that Asians now earn more than whites in the USA? How have whites been oppressed leading to this unequal result?

Not all unequal results are the result of unequal treatment. Some unequal results are the result of unequal treatment. The point about Asian incomes having surpassed white incomes in the USA proves the above statement, since there is no conceivable way to assert that whites have been discriminated against vis-a-vis Asians in America. Yet Asians now earn more than whites in America. So some group differences in results can and do exist without oppression being a causative factor.

edit: Of course, one might argue that whites haven't been oppressed vis-a-vis Asians, that whites are just inferior. I prefer to think it is due to cultural differences that Asians now outearn whites in America. Notably, too, Asians were highly oppressed in America many decades ago.

Thanks for reading.

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To a large extent, I agree with this. A great deal of success or failure in America can be tied to ones own culture. Just look at subcultures within white America for lots of examples of this. Jews as a group are much more successful than most white Americans because of Jewish cultures emphasis on education, so that they were/are able to succeed despite being discriminated against. There are subgroups of whites who don't have this same emphasis on education and they are consequentially not as successful. Asians as a rule have tremendous emphasis on education, but the are subgroups within Asian-American culture that do not.

This is not to say that all success or failure is due to cultural factors, obviously there are some outside negative factors, but after observing the difference between various schools for the past year, a lot of the damage is self-inflicted. And that's something no one in public life dares talk about, because it "blames the victim".

[tolbiny]

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I would agree that some outside forces have led to some imbalances, but that is not the whole picture. What outside forces have led to the result that Asians now earn more than whites in the USA? How have whites been oppressed leading to this unequal result?

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This is very simple, immigration of Asian populations is a daunting task from a cultural and language perspective, only those with enough money to do it and a tremendous amount of motivation to want to do it are going to. You have a self selecting bias in favor of people who are likley to achieve high status.

[mosdef]

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A great deal of success or failure in America can be tied to ones own culture.

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This is (almost) a tautology. Cultural groups correlate with value systems, success is measured by the value system of the culture.

[MrMon]

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A great deal of success or failure in America can be tied to ones own culture.

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This is (almost) a tautology. Cultural groups correlate with value systems, success is measured by the value system of the culture.

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True, but when everyone says Group X doesn't measure up, it's always about the bling bling. Otherwise we'd have affirmative action programs for nerds and geeks who aren't getting any.

[Leaky Eye]

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does anyone else still feel bad that black people are not treated as equals in america? whites get more money and are less likely to go to jail. going to jail makes black fathers less likely to have time to spend with their baby's momma which causes her to work two jobs to support her baby's daddy baby. this causes a repeat cycle.

there are some black models as professional athletes and music performer but hollywood is still racist. black people are always the token guy or the best friend or they play the cliche "mr hip" black guy. you never see a normal black guy and on shows like nikeloden for kids they never show a black guy with a white girl because itd scare the white kid audience cause its on cable.

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To some extent you might be to be confusing "equal results" with "equal treatment". Equal treatment DOES NOT GUARANTEE the production of equal results.

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Assuming sames opportunities, it does for a large population

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No it doesn't. Cultural priorities influence the results. The majority of Black America doesn't value education, or stable families, and its leaders have wrapped them in a cult of victimhood. With those handicaps they would need far better opportunity to get equal results.

[NewTeaBag]

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I would agree that some outside forces have led to some imbalances, but that is not the whole picture. What outside forces have led to the result that Asians now earn more than whites in the USA? How have whites been oppressed leading to this unequal result?

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This is very simple, immigration of Asian populations is a daunting task from a cultural and language perspective, only those with enough money to do it and a tremendous amount of motivation to want to do it are going to. You have a self selecting bias in favor of people who are likley to achieve high status.

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I'll give you counter example. My best friend in the US right now was born in Hanoi. His family left, via boat, along with about 50 others around 1979. Their perilous travel, including multiple stops in unfriendly countries, suject to atrocities and abuse. His family eventually settled in NYC. Hid dad worked as a taxi driver and his mom in a nail salon. They lived in a Very small 2 br apt in an ok part of Brooklyn. They came with little to no money, no language skills and very little in terms community support. They accepted ZERO social security, unemploymnt, foodstamps, etc, guvment assistance.

Today, my friend is a successful (BS,MS and near PHD educated) computer engineer/researcher, and also proud USAF Reserve Officer, married to a lovely Mexican/American woman with a young son whose future is boundless because of his parents and grandparents struggle and sacrifice. His brother is now the successful owner of a contact cleaning buisness whose future also holds only bright things for both himself and his children when he should have them.

Their parents had little and understood little when they got to America. WHat they did do though, was work their arses off so that their sons would get a tremendous education and understanding of work ethic.

IMO, they ARE America. Perhaps even more so than me, the native born, well educated, military served, combat veteran. They came to the US to improve their lives and futures and did so with hard work and determination and no initial resources.

[nietzreznor]

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I do. People in this forum think if that we stick our fingers in our ears that we can make race based problems go away. The problem is, that you most definately are treated differently in this country by what color your skin is. Whether it's in the media, in court or where you live, being a minority is an excellent predictor of having a crappy life. Heck, the concensus on this forum is that Obama can't get elected because he is black.

Of course, there are two explanations for this: either you believe that minorities are inferior or that forces outside their control have led to this. I believe the latter.

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I think this is 100% correct.

[tolbiny]

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I would agree that some outside forces have led to some imbalances, but that is not the whole picture. What outside forces have led to the result that Asians now earn more than whites in the USA? How have whites been oppressed leading to this unequal result?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is very simple, immigration of Asian populations is a daunting task from a cultural and language perspective, only those with enough money to do it and a tremendous amount of motivation to want to do it are going to. You have a self selecting bias in favor of people who are likley to achieve high status.

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I'll give you counter example. My best friend in the US right now was born in Hanoi. His family left, via boat, along with about 50 others around 1979. Their perilous travel, including multiple stops in unfriendly countries, suject to atrocities and abuse. His family eventually settled in NYC. Hid dad worked as a taxi driver and his mom in a nail salon. They lived in a Very small 2 br apt in an ok part of Brooklyn. They came with little to no money, no language skills and very little in terms community support. They accepted ZERO social security, unemploymnt, foodstamps, etc, guvment assistance.

Today, my friend is a successful (BS,MS and near PHD educated) computer engineer/researcher, and also proud USAF Reserve Officer, married to a lovely Mexican/American woman with a young son whose future is boundless because of his parents and grandparents struggle and sacrifice. His brother is now the successful owner of a contact cleaning buisness whose future also holds only bright things for both himself and his children when he should have them.

Their parents had little and understood little when they got to America. WHat they did do though, was work their arses off so that their sons would get a tremendous education and understanding of work ethic.

IMO, they ARE America. Perhaps even more so than me, the native born, well educated, military served, combat veteran. They came to the US to improve their lives and futures and did so with hard work and determination and no initial resources.

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This isn't a counter example, its a primary example of what i was saying. Though i guess that "enough money" was misleading. What I wanted to say was that people who are willing to risk what they have to get a better life are going to be of certain a certain personality type and are going to be more successful in the long run. Enough money was just a relative term, it just has to be enough to get here.

[NewTeaBag]

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I would agree that some outside forces have led to some imbalances, but that is not the whole picture. What outside forces have led to the result that Asians now earn more than whites in the USA? How have whites been oppressed leading to this unequal result?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is very simple, immigration of Asian populations is a daunting task from a cultural and language perspective, only those with enough money to do it and a tremendous amount of motivation to want to do it are going to. You have a self selecting bias in favor of people who are likley to achieve high status.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll give you counter example. My best friend in the US right now was born in Hanoi. His family left, via boat, along with about 50 others around 1979. Their perilous travel, including multiple stops in unfriendly countries, suject to atrocities and abuse. His family eventually settled in NYC. Hid dad worked as a taxi driver and his mom in a nail salon. They lived in a Very small 2 br apt in an ok part of Brooklyn. They came with little to no money, no language skills and very little in terms community support. They accepted ZERO social security, unemploymnt, foodstamps, etc, guvment assistance.

Today, my friend is a successful (BS,MS and near PHD educated) computer engineer/researcher, and also proud USAF Reserve Officer, married to a lovely Mexican/American woman with a young son whose future is boundless because of his parents and grandparents struggle and sacrifice. His brother is now the successful owner of a contact cleaning buisness whose future also holds only bright things for both himself and his children when he should have them.

Their parents had little and understood little when they got to America. WHat they did do though, was work their arses off so that their sons would get a tremendous education and understanding of work ethic.

IMO, they ARE America. Perhaps even more so than me, the native born, well educated, military served, combat veteran. They came to the US to improve their lives and futures and did so with hard work and determination and no initial resources.

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This isn't a counter example, its a primary example of what i was saying. Though i guess that "enough money" was misleading. What I wanted to say was that people who are willing to risk what they have to get a better life are going to be of certain a certain personality type and are going to be more successful in the long run. Enough money was just a relative term, it just has to be enough to get here.

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Fair enough. Remove your financial ability stipulation and we agree. Their story is a good example of what a self motivated family can do for themselves.

Now, why can't/won't an indiginous population, the african American community in this discussion, who don't have the language, citizenship or travel bariers, try to do the same?

I think, institutional racism as a large scale valid excuse has played out it's course, especially now in 2007.