tpnk -- nl cash

[whaahhahahah]

effective stacks about 400. 2/4 nl.

2nd hand i've played against him. the first, he raised preflop -- i reraised and took it down.

i have k6 diamonds

i raise to 12. he calls.

flop (24) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]k [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
he checks. i pot. he raises to 72. hoping for a turn check, i call.

turn (166) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
he bets 110. hoping for a river checkdown, i call.

river (366) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
he pushes for 200. cursing the river push, i?

[west_eh]

You still have fold equity on the turn (actually stack sizes are set up nicely) and if you push you will get called by worse hands some of the time; combo draws, worse flush draws, worse pairs occasionally, etc.

On the river, I don't think he is bluffing often.

So, instead of calling the turn with the intention of calling a river bet, I'd prefer a turn push. You aren't going to induce a bluff often enough to make up for the positives of a turn push.

As played, I'd fold.

[testaaja]

River is a fold. If he has worse hand than you more power to him but I don't see him betting 3 streets with worse hands (maybe missed FD?). I'd be happy to get it all in on flop or raise turn.

[yellowsub]

get that all in on the flop imho

[Sponger.]

[ QUOTE ]
get that all in on the flop imho

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah thats a pretty great flop for his hand, you should be jamming there and calling only if the board was like K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

[Sponger.]

Also I think this river is an easy fold and you'd be making a crying call because you're pissed that you missed on all your outs.

[west_eh]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
get that all in on the flop imho

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah thats a pretty great flop for his hand, you should be jamming there and calling only if the board was like K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

How is raising the flop all-in better then waiting and pushing the turn?

On the turn:
-there will be more money to semi-bluff for (assuming he leads, although if he checks it's a good situation too)
-it puts any draw in a tough position

It seems that a flop push would be a big overbet (almost 6x) and that we'd get called liberally by hands we are losing to .

The only argument for a flop push I can think of is that you get more fold equity that way. But look at what type of hands you can fold out and they will probably muck the turn too.

Wait for the turn to push and you'll make more money when you are bluffing and will get a chance to draw out by seeing the turn and sometimes a free river.

[pocketjesuits]

I don't think any of the three lines are bad (assuming you fold the river in the first line) and would use all of them at different times depending on opponent and flow of the match.

You have to think of his range as something like this:
a) better kings
b) draws
c) air
d) monsters

Line 1: Flop 3-bet push
a) I really don't know how many better kings are folding. Some will probably find a fold, others will look you up
b) Draws will probably all fold. Since you are way ahead of all draws, this is not a good thing
c) Air folds. Again, not a good thing
d) Monsters call and you're a big dog

So while you might fold out a few top-pair type hands, generally most better hands call and worse hands fold.

The real value in this move is for metagame purposes. Pushing combodraws that aren't usually a big dog allows you to get action on your big hands. However I would prefer to push combodraws that aren't top-pair.

Line 2: Turn "semibluff"

I don't really think this is much of a semibluff, since you'll seldom fold out better hands. So you'll probably lose just as much against better hands, while getting your money in as an even worse dog. Secondly if you hit you often won't be paid off.

The main value in this move is that (a) if you hit on the turn you are stacking lower flush draws (but getting stacked by the nuts) (b) if the turn is a blank you can often get a (semi)bluff bet from draws/air while maximally charging them for the free card.


Line 3: call twice

This is a good line if you consider yourself a good hand-reader. You can often gain information via your opponents bet-sizing/timing to tell you how to play the river. However there is always the risk of getting pushed off the best hand using this line. The benefit is that you give yourself maximal opportunity to stack worse flush draws and maximal opportunity to get away against a better hand.



Against a completely unknown player I would put him on a better hand more often than air or a draw, hence I would lean towards the line of the OP - call, call, and with the given information would fold the river.

[slimbob]

I fold the flop after raise to 72.

[whaahhahahah]

serious question: do you check the flop then?