Hand from the WSOP 2500nl (not mine) but interesting I think.

[NoahSD]

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a minraise then push would be [censored] awesome for hero. and i dont think the opposition are observant enough to see it coming

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Yeah... this'd be sick.

minraise/push > push >>>> raise to 600 >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>> fold

[curtains]

I would obviously move allin PF?

[nath]

all you "omg minraise/push would be awesome" guys are playing this hand like you know UTG+1 is going to push when the action gets back to him.

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I really think not jamming here preflop is outhinking yourself.

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[Stipe_fan]

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I'd do that sometimes but then I'm also a total internet donk and probably don't realize that you can't shove if UTG+1 repops...ugh.

Normally I'd just push PF but with these stacks/blinds it's really tempting to take a gamble and get action. hmm.

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I agree. I would definitely push. I hate to see four way action with any hand, including aces

Stipe

[adanthar]

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I agree. I would definitely push. I hate to see four way action with any hand, including aces

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If I knew that (insert raise size here) would get exactly 3 callers with 17 BB in this structure I would make it that amount every single time.

[uclabruinz]

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I really think not jamming here preflop is outhinking yourself.

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[pa3lsvt]

I would have raised to at least UTG+1's remaining stack so as not to get caught being able to only flat call when it comes back around (which it is facing the action in this hand).

Once you've done that, you might as well shove anyway so a push it is.

for those who disagree w/ the minraise/push, just hear me out

if we push and the SS puts the rest in, UTG+3/CO are not even getting 2:1.

and i disagree w/ the fact that UTG+3/CO are strong enough to be able to call our push. sheets says theyre fairly strong to be calling SS's raise..i think theyd be isolating here if they were this strong. instead theyre simply inviting the whole table to join in on the fun.

ok so say we push. we probably get head up w/ the SS unless some1 wakes up w/ a big hand behind us.

now say we go for the minraise/push..heres what i think would/could happen:

blinds at 50/100

UTG+1 with 850 chips total opens for 200.
UTG+3 with 4k calls.
CO with 4k calls.
HERO with 1700 and KK makes it 400
BB w/ 6k calls 400
________________________________________________
UTG+1 now pushes for 850 (pot is now at t2050)
UTG+3 calls 650
CO calls 650 (i dont believe either UTG+3/CO are going to realize whats going on by now. but i think its possible that one of them could fold. but in this simulation, they call)
HERO pushes 1300 more for 1700 total (pot is 3350+1300=4650)

****HERES WHERE THINGS GET INTERESTING****
now we've reached the point where BB/UTG+3/CO are very likely to push out the rest of the field to force a 3-way pot

BB needs to call 1300 to win 4650 (like 3.5:1). i think hes folding here since UTG+3/CO could push.
UTG+3 has around 3100 left, as does CO. he is probably pushing here to knock out the CO. so lets say he does.

3-way pot:
main pot = 3800
side pot = 1700

[Prime Time]

You got your money in good, and lost to a two outer on the river. Whats the problem?

I'd run this as many times as you want on the river w/ real cash, wouldn't you?

The pre-flop play gets you additional action you crave, If you shut everyone else out pre-flop, don't think you are getting maximum value out of the KK hand.

[nath]

Dave,
It's still a dangerous assumption that UTG+1 is going to push when the action gets back to him. Just because he did this time doesn't mean he will or should be expected to.
Not pushing is FPS-- it might work out great if X, Y, and Z fall into place, but these are variables you are hoping for rather than reliably counting on or in your control.