Ok, another thoughts about poker post.

[Bob T.]

It's late, and I don't feel like editing today, so I am going to just try and rip this out, because I've been trying to put together some ideas lately. Maybe writing(typing) them out will help me think them through. Maybe your comments will make it all clear.

A little background. I posted the 50 Big bet challenge, earlier this month. When I started, I immediately ran up 50 BBs at .50/1.00, and then almost as quickly gave back 25 big bets at 1/2. Since then I've been grinding away at .50/1.00 and not been able to run good enough to get 50 big bets ahead.

Anyway, there are a couple of things that I noticed by doing this challenge. First, .50/1.00 players, aren't as bad as I remember them to be. I have been running bad,with more than my share of bad luck, but I have also lost some bets, to what seemed like good play.

Second thing is, I think that we all might be getting a little too far away from VALUE BETTING in our normal games. Because I was playing .50/1.00 I was emphasizing value betting in those games a little more than I usually would, and I found that in my regular games, my mix of value bets to other plays was higher than it has been, and in my other games, I was running good. Coincidence?

Third, there is a lot of money to be made in lower limit games. Because I was scrolling to the .50/1.00 games every time I logged on, I was going past the 1/2 and 2/4 games that I usually didn't play, or even look at. There are a lot of soft games at those levels, where a fair amount of money is available without too much effort. For instance, if you had a choice of a 3/6 game, that was 22% to the flop, and an average pot of $30, and a 2/4 game that was 29% to the flop, also with a $30 avg pot size, where do you think that there are more mistakes being made?

I would be willing to bet, (if I was a betting type of person [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]) that a lot of us, get stuck in the I'm a (fill in your usual limit) player, and we don't look outside that limit for games, even though there might be a lot more profit available there.

Fourth thought, maybe we should be thinking about the games, not as a certain limit game, but as a certain texture game. I know that these statistics don't capture everything about the game, but instead of thinking, I want to play in a 5-10 game today. Maybe we should be thinking, I will play in a 25%/6BB game today. And when we find that game, we play in it, if it is 5/10, 3/6, 2/4, or 8/16.

Another way of looking at it, say you want to move up one level, and you find that the games at the next level up, are tighter, with smaller pots than at your current level. Well, you have to be able to play against tighter players, to succeed at the next level. Instead of playing up. Why not look for that game makeup, at your current level, or even down one level. When you find the skills to beat that game at 2-4, and again at 3-6, then you are probably ready to move to 5-10. And, you have probably invested less money preparing yourself to play up another level, by finding games that simulate the level, instead of doing all of your learning at the next level.

The other thing that I was thinking, is that there probably isn't as much talent differences between the different limits, as there used to be, or as many of us think there is. At least I found that to be true moving down, so I would expect that it is true moving up also. SO, if you find a game makeup that you think you can beat one or two levels higher than you are used to, then if your bankroll can withstand the variance, I think it is a good time to take a shot at those higher levels.

[One Outer]

Good post, Bob. I would amend that this may not be as applicable in live games because of the rake. Live players like me (Jesse8888 comes to mind, too) would be hard pressed to move down to 4/8 and have better (or even the same) winrates because of how draconian the rake is. But hey, at least I have free MVP rewards beer while I'm sitting in my unusually tight 6/12 game waiting for a table change.

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Second thing is, I think that we all might be getting a little too far away from VALUE BETTING in our normal games. Because I was playing .50/1.00 I was emphasizing value betting in those games a little more than I usually would, and I found that in my regular games, my mix of value bets to other plays was higher than it has been, and in my other games, I was running good. Coincidence?

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I agree. I had this realization last week (that I had sort of backburnered or forgot about valuebetting). See, I discovered that I suck about 2 months ago and I have been so busy posting, reading and working on other things that I have been giving it short shrift. I think this is a good reminder that the basics are the basics for a reason.

[Bob T.]

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I would amend that this may not be as applicable in live games because of the rake. Live players like me (Jesse8888 comes to mind, too) would be hard pressed to move down to 4/8 and have better (or even the same) winrates because of how draconian the rake is.

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Yeah, the rake in live LL games is brutal. At Canterbury, for instance, if you are playing 2-4, and the pot is $20, you are paying 2 in rake, 1 in Jackpot drop, and whatever you might tip. Online, you are paying $1 in rake up to a $39 pot.

[James.]

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Maybe we should be thinking, I will play in a 25%/6BB game today. And when we find that game, we play in it, if it is 5/10, 3/6, 2/4, or 8/16.

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this is a good thought. i do it now, but never really paid much attention to it.

specifically, if i can't find a game texture to my liking or if i'm in a game that changes texture(at the limits i take seriously), i've had to learn to just get up. if i just want to play i'll drop down to a limit i don't need to take seriously so i can donk around and have some fun.

[Harv72b]

Not much to add to this except that you cannot overestimate the importance of value betting in LHE. It's what the game is about.

In addition to Bob's excellent point about being more fluid in the limits you play, it also behooves any serious player to work on developing their skills in other games. Short-handed and heads up LHE, NLHE, Omaha, Stud, and especially mixed games--if you are better than average (let alone good) at all of these games, then you should be able to find a very profitable table or six at any time, day or night.

[Bob T.]

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Short-handed and heads up LHE, NLHE, Omaha, Stud, and especially mixed games--if you are better than average (let alone good) at all of these games, then you should be able to find a very profitable table or six at any time, day or night.

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Additionally, the skills that dominate each game, are slightly different, and becoming better at those other skills, will make you a better poker player, and even if your only goal is to be a holdem player, it will make you a better holdem player.