Changing Hand Values as Table Shrinks

[KnightEnder]

I've read a ton of books on 'starting' hand values and I know you have to loosen up with fewer players, but is there anywhere, here, or a book, that talks about these changing values?

What's the acceptable starting hand when under the gun with 6 players, etc.?

KE

[6471849653]

With less players left to act one doesn't need as good a hand as the chances have gone down that one will face a stronger hand too often. There's a mathematical formula for that, and there are software runs (showdown runs as well as simulated) and there are real stats (pokerroom.com may still have them, not sure) per limit and the number of players still to act (played by all players, good and bad but most these days may play at least decently).

With 6 players left in a full ring game one needs to be marginally tighter than when it's a 6-max game as when no-one is yet in the pot in a 10-max game there's a bit better chance that the remaining players will have a better hand, though it's marginal, and then people in 10-max games (even when it's shorthanded) rate to be somewhat tighter preflop and/or after the flop, so it effect the hand values too and how one should play them preflop and after.

What one should play out of position like three of the button (6-max under the gun) depends of game conditions too, e.g. it's not too good to go open-raising XT, X9s, (22 is good if the big blind won't call with lesser hands but if that's not the case one would like 77 that should be good under any but too loose conditions) when one gets 3-bet with any semi-playable hand and the big blind doesn't fold often and the after the flop play is tricky and tough. In that case one needs to be tighter and either fold or limp with the weaker hands to get a better mix between the showdown/4-bet starting hands and the weaker starting hands, though one generally gets raised more often when one limps (and one is obvious, but it still doesn't mean one can't make money, e.g. one has the position over the blinds who have weak hands) than when one open-raises, meaning one would be better to open-raise, especially as one normally does steal the big blind at least some of the time, in case the simulations clearly indicate open-raising being a more profitable play than limping, but they can't be trusted 100%; one needs to think and feel it by experience too.

[rubbrband]

Not really that hard to do if you are utg in a 6 max it would play similar to if you were 5th to act at a 10 person ring and everyone folded in front of you.

[DrewOnTilt]

[ QUOTE ]
I've read a ton of books on 'starting' hand values and I know you have to loosen up with fewer players, but is there anywhere, here, or a book, that talks about these changing values?

What's the acceptable starting hand when under the gun with 6 players, etc.?

KE

[/ QUOTE ]

"Weighing the Odds in Holdem Poker" by King Yao has a good shorthanded section

"How Good is Your Limit Holdem" discusses a good number of shorthanded situations.

[DrewOnTilt]

[ QUOTE ]
Not really that hard to do if you are utg in a 6 max it would play similar to if you were 5th to act at a 10 person ring and everyone folded in front of you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some time ago I read an analysis that discounted this idea. I can't remember who wrote it, but the theory was that in a full ring game when everyone folds to MP, then they likely had garbage cards, thus INCREASING the probability that people in later positions have decent hands. At 6max this simply wouldn't be the case.

I can't remember where I read that. Does anyone know?

[admiralfluff]

This theory has been discussed before, but I can't recall the specific term used or find links. People have run simulations, and I believe the results were that the increase in hand value of later acting opponents due to earlier folds was negligible. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Can you assign dead ranges in pstove?

[donger]

[ QUOTE ]
This theory has been discussed before, but I can't recall the specific term used or find links. People have run simulations, and I believe the results were that the increase in hand value of later acting opponents due to earlier folds was negligible. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Can you assign dead ranges in pstove?

[/ QUOTE ]


It's usually called "bunching."

[rubbrband]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not really that hard to do if you are utg in a 6 max it would play similar to if you were 5th to act at a 10 person ring and everyone folded in front of you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some time ago I read an analysis that discounted this idea. I can't remember who wrote it, but the theory was that in a full ring game when everyone folds to MP, then they likely had garbage cards, thus INCREASING the probability that people in later positions have decent hands. At 6max this simply wouldn't be the case.

I can't remember where I read that. Does anyone know?

[/ QUOTE ]Bunching really isn't a big deal because in early position people only play premium stuff AK AQ AJ AT they can easily fold A4 or a K9 really lowers the effect this has on probability. More important to take into consideration is if ring game players play differently with six left than 6max players play.

[KnightEnder]

Thanks everybody. That is genius rubbrband! Makes me feel kind of stupid for not thinking of it my self.

I've gotten 2nd in five tourneys, I need to work on my Heads up. I'm reading Action Dan's book now and he has a very good chapter on it. Anybody read it? If so, what do you think?

(FLUSH: With the Queen and King on the board wouldn't you go all-in if you held the Jack? Bastard had the Ace! How much should I hate myself?)

KE