I make a silly play postflop, and try to justify it.....

thepizzlefosho · #1 11-21-2007, 10:38 PM

So button is a 35/24 LAGTAG who is going to 3-bet me a ton with a pretty wide range (at least he as been this session). SB is pretty much a standard 48/12 LP.

On the flop I thought that a c/r looks strong against the LAGTAG since it is a protected pot once the SB calls, and since I am ahead of his range (pretty much ATC since he almost always defended his SB especially in m-way pots) if I can convince the LAGTAG to fold some hands that have me beat/have 6outs then I think I make $$$. Plus I can't profitably call down in a m-way pot, and I keep him from taking a free card with a hand like JTs or something on the turn.

On the river I bet hoping that the SB might fold a small pkt pair since the K works pretty well as a scare card for me.

I know this whole hand is probably stupid, and I expect to be told so, but I figured I would post it up and get berated anyway. FWIW I rarely do stuff like this, but figured it was worth discussing anyway.

Full Tilt Poker $8/$16 Limit Hold'em - 6 players
Hand Converter Tool from DeucesCracked.com

Preflop: Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG folds, MP folds, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, SB calls, BB folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (10.00 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, SB calls, Hero raises, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: (8.00 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, Button folds, SB calls.

River: (10.00 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB folds.

Final Pot: 10.00 BB

Hobbs. · #2 11-21-2007, 10:48 PM

I'm not too sure what to do here either. The [censored] thing is that we are ahead here decently often on the flop, but finding a solid line to take is pretty hard. We probably have enough equity to cap preflop which would make our hand easier to play postflop. Another option would be to call the flop and donk a safe looking turn card (if the LAGTAG is a good hand reader we are likely setting ourselves up to get owned here doing this though.

As played I like you're thought process but just seems like a little much. I think the best play on the flop is to call and then do something on the turn [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] (yeah not very helpful)

Also, I'd check the river here. Don't think we have a value bet or any FE.

TheHip41 · #3 11-21-2007, 10:52 PM

With that line up, I just cap PF.

On the river, I just check, these guys don't fold pairs at 8-16. Since he folded, you were winning anyway.

thepizzlefosho · #4 11-21-2007, 11:05 PM

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With that line up, I just cap PF.

On the river, I just check, these guys don't fold pairs at 8-16. Since he folded, you were winning anyway.

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should I be capping pf in these spots against someone who's range I'm probably ahead of? I usually figure that my hand plays poorly enough pf that I am just bloating the pot in a bad spot, but obviously less so than the line I ended up taking.

I know this is just a bad spot, but I feel like just c/c'ing the flop and c/f'ing the turn is just giving up too much.

TheHip41 · #5 11-21-2007, 11:27 PM

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With that line up, I just cap PF.

On the river, I just check, these guys don't fold pairs at 8-16. Since he folded, you were winning anyway.

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should I be capping pf in these spots against someone who's range I'm probably ahead of? I usually figure that my hand plays poorly enough pf that I am just bloating the pot in a bad spot, but obviously less so than the line I ended up taking.

I know this is just a bad spot, but I feel like just c/c'ing the flop and c/f'ing the turn is just giving up too much.

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So button is a 35/24 LAGTAG

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This guy is probably 3banging you with QTo and 44. I'm not worried about his range.

thepizzlefosho · #6 11-21-2007, 11:35 PM

so would you c/c down in this spot? should I call down the turn and c/f the river? I have to say I feel really lost in these spots.

TheHip41 · #7 11-21-2007, 11:44 PM

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so would you c/c down in this spot? should I call down the turn and c/f the river? I have to say I feel really lost in these spots.

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that's why I cap PF, to take control of the hand.

As for how you played it, I dunno. Don't ask me, I suck at poker.

ILOVEPOKER929 · #8 11-22-2007, 01:31 AM

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Also, I'd check the river here. Don't think we have a value bet or any FE.

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I do think the river play is close becuz of the pot size. With 10BB's in there we dont have to fold a pocket pair very often for this bet to be profitable. And lets not forget that our hand ties all Ax hands, so getting another Ax to fold would be a huge victory also. Im not saying that betting the river is better than a check down, but that river card + large pot size + credibility of strength hero has gained from his combined play on the three earlier streets leads me to conclude that hero's river play is "Ok".

There is also another benefit to betting this river that comes into play if we expect to play against these villain's alot in the future:

1) If were called on the river anybody who's paying attention will take note of the hero's "spewy" play and I think thats a very good thing.

2) If we're not called on the river, the preflop 3bettor will never see that we ran this value/bluff play on him which means we can possibly run this again on him. This point is probably a weak argument since this type of play probably doesnt come up very often.

Oink · #9 11-22-2007, 05:16 AM

Cap preflop. I have those stats and I 3-bet you with QTo and 22 if I like my image.

I dont like the flop c/r. I just peel one of. Cant give a justification tho. So take it FWIW.

Good post by ILP on river. I think I am missing some profitable river bluffs with A high sometimes.

DrVanNostrin · #10 11-22-2007, 05:28 AM

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I do think the river play is close becuz of the pot size. With 10BB's in there we dont have to fold a pocket pair very often for this bet to be profitable. And lets not forget that our hand ties all Ax hands, so getting another Ax to fold would be a huge victory also. Im not saying that betting the river is better than a check down, but that river card + large pot size + credibility of strength hero has gained from his combined play on the three earlier streets leads me to conclude that hero's river play is "Ok".

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I would never bet this river. But you make a good case for it here. It's something I'm going to try to add. Whether it works is highly dependant on your image of course. With a poor image you're the SB, as described, is never folding a pair. With a good image and a short history of winning w/o SD it's reasonable.