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#1
10-06-2007, 06:26 PM
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Stud8 - cleaning up weak high hands in order to scoop
I primarily am not posting this to get comments on the play, although if you want you can comment on if 6th street is bad. Anyway I included the results.
This hand made me think about a strategic point I have not been paying attention to before. Probably seat 5 had some kind of weak high, since he thought about calling for a very long time. However, he folded, and that probably worked out beautifully for me since I got to scoop. So that's what I am thinking: when playing a low hand should you try to somehow represent a high or make it many bets for the high hands to cold call so that they might possibly fold? Is this a point generally worth paying attention to, or did I just get incredibly lucky? 7 Card Stud High-Low ($3/$6), Ante $0,50, Bring-In $1 (converter) 3rd Street - (0.83 SB) Seat 1: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___brings-in Seat 4: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls Seat 5: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls Seat 6: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds 4th Street - (2.17 SB) Seat 1: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks Seat 4: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks Seat 5: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks 5th Street - (1.08 BB) Seat 1: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___calls Seat 4: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___folds Seat 5: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets 6th Street - (4.08 BB) Seat 1: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___calls Seat 5: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets___calls River - (10.08 BB) Seat 1: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___bets___calls Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___raises Seat 5: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] xx___checks___folds Total pot: (14.08 BB - $84,50) *** SUMMARY *** Total pot $84.50 | Rake $3 Seat 1: defmno mucked [Ad 6d 7d 5h 9h 2s 3d] - HI: Ace Nine high; LO: 6,5,3,2,A Seat 2: roggles showed [7c 6s 2h 4d 4s As 3h] and won ($81.50) with HI: a pair of Fours; LO: 6,4,3,2,A 
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#2
10-06-2007, 06:38 PM
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Re: Stud8 - cleaning up weak high hands in order to scoop
bet out fourth 5th 6th and 7th please
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#3
10-06-2007, 06:44 PM
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Re: Stud8 - cleaning up weak high hands in order to scoop
No.
4th I have nothing but a low draw and it's not better than what seat 7 is showing. I think betting out 5th is also bad. Not really anything high going for me. On 6th I am beat by both players. 7th is what this whole thread is about. By c/r I squeezed Seat 5 out and made A LOT of extra money. Edit: In general I don't like playing low hands only. Actually, if I wasn't bring-in this hand goes in the muck on 3rd for me.
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#4
10-07-2007, 06:53 PM
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Re: Stud8 - cleaning up weak high hands in order to scoop
[ QUOTE ]
No. 4th I have nothing but a low draw and it's not better than what seat 7 is showing. [/ QUOTE ] No. 4th, the better-looking low checks to you. The player in Seat 4 who caught bricks must be given the choice between folding and peeling. The other two players who caught low aren't doing the job; it's up to you. [ QUOTE ] I think betting out 5th is also bad. Not really anything high going for me. [/ QUOTE ] You now have a two-way hand; everyone else has draws to one or the other end of the pot. Every other player bricked. If you are behind for high, you should still bet, a player with a brick and a pair is hard-put to call, and your equity goes up if they fold. If you are not behind for high, you should bet for value. This is a must-bet situation. [ QUOTE ] On 6th I am beat by both players. [/ QUOTE ] If those bricks paired either player, your low equity goes up. You very likely have the best high and you may have the best low. If you don't the best low you have a redraw to the best low. You certainly have more than a third of the equity in the pot, so every bet that other players add to it adds to your EV. [ QUOTE ] 7th is what this whole thread is about. By c/r I squeezed Seat 5 out and made A LOT of extra money. [/ QUOTE ] But you should make the same play on an earlier street for exactly the same reason. Why give weak hands cheap cards to out draw you? [ QUOTE ] Edit: In general I don't like playing low hands only. Actually, if I wasn't bring-in this hand goes in the muck on 3rd for me. [/ QUOTE ] You're playing too tight.
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#5
10-08-2007, 12:05 AM
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Re: Stud8 - cleaning up weak high hands in order to scoop
I'm quoting a quoter; enjoy.
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] No. 4th I have nothing but a low draw and it's not better than what seat 7 is showing. [/ QUOTE ] No. 4th, the better-looking low checks to you. The player in Seat 4 who caught bricks must be given the choice between folding and peeling. The other two players who caught low aren't doing the job; it's up to you. [/ QUOTE ] Yes; you aren't really betting on your own hand strength, but you also have a nice board and you could force people out on a later street. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I think betting out 5th is also bad. Not really anything high going for me. [/ QUOTE ] You now have a two-way hand; everyone else has draws to one or the other end of the pot. Every other player bricked. If you are behind for high, you should still bet, a player with a brick and a pair is hard-put to call, and your equity goes up if they fold. If you are not behind for high, you should bet for value. This is a must-bet situation. [/ QUOTE ] I concur, I easily bet 100% of the time when I catch good and every other apparent low hand bricked. You do realize you have the best high on board, and everyone has a low door card, right? Even if someone has a big pair, you are the favorite against them one on one [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] On 6th I am beat by both players. [/ QUOTE ] If those bricks paired either player, your low equity goes up. You very likely have the best high and you may have the best low. If you don't the best low you have a redraw to the best low. You certainly have more than a third of the equity in the pot, so every bet that other players add to it adds to your EV. [/ QUOTE ] I disagree here, being beat both ways is a strong reason to check on 6th. Hero doesn't exactly have a monster draw, and other people can redraw even if hero hits a better low or two pair. I would play weakly here unless I was reasonably sure I wasn't beaten both ways. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] 7th is what this whole thread is about. By c/r I squeezed Seat 5 out and made A LOT of extra money. [/ QUOTE ] But you should make the same play on an earlier street for exactly the same reason. Why give weak hands cheap cards to out draw you? [/ QUOTE ] 7th was a clever play, but betting on an earlier street may have won you the whole pot early or increase your chances of winning at least half later. [ QUOTE ] Edit: In general I don't like playing low hands only. Actually, if I wasn't bring-in this hand goes in the muck on 3rd for me. [/ QUOTE ] It depends, but 762 does kind of suck. It's okay against several high hands or against one other low player who folds a lot or for a steal. I do generally fold this hand.
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#7
10-08-2007, 12:16 AM
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Re: Stud8 - cleaning up weak high hands in order to scoop
dude fourth you have to bet after its checked around, i think its a good place to price yourself in. You prbobably have the best low hand after the 75 checked, and even if you don't you are not far behind, your board looks good, and your equity is fine assuming you get the 38 to come along
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#9
10-09-2007, 04:16 AM
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Re: Stud8 - cleaning up weak high hands in order to scoop
Why do I want to bet 4th?
As I said before Seat 1 may very well have a better low draw than I do. I think I had seen that particular player check 4th in that situation during this session. The way the hand played out on 6th I'm fairly sure this was the correct analysis too. Furthermore, this hand has very little high potential. So, what type of bet is betting 4th here? Not really a value bet. Why do I gain so much EV from squeezing out the player who caught a K? Is the pot control worth it? I just don't understand the value of betting here. I know a lot of people try to raise as much as they can as soon as they catch a good low card, but I thought this was a leak in their game.
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#10
10-09-2007, 10:04 PM
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Re: Stud8 - cleaning up weak high hands in order to scoop
Why would he check to you with a better low draw? You were the bring-in. You could have J9 down for all he knows. If he's weak enough to check a Seven-draw in this spot, he's probably also weak enough to have limped in with garbage and is now looking for a free card. Don't give it to him.
And consider 5K. He'd probably love a free card. If he catches good and you catch bad on fifth, then he's caught up to you, and you let him do so for free. This would be a criminal shame. If he calls a bet on fourth, he's probably making a mistake. He can't make this mistake if you don't bet. You almost have to have at least 1/n equity here. And if you get one or two folders, it increases the chance that you'll have a sweeper by backing into one or two pair. I honestly can't think of a downside to betting here. Bet your damned hand already.
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