KK check-raised on an TTx flop

[Profish2285]

Standard WA/WB time, just call down on any non heart or possibly A turn and river.

[ama0330]

All those saying call, do you fold a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] turn if he leads?

[Profish2285]

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just call down on any non heart

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If he is leading a heart then he isnt afraid of it but he should be. If someone is still leading on a scare card more often than not I would think that either that card helped them or they were strong enough where they dont even care about it.

[ama0330]

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just call down on any non heart

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So if we think he has a FD then shouldnt we be raising the flop again, especially if we are paying off Tx or 44 anyway when the heart doesnt hit?

[Profish2285]

Well Im not saying he has a flush draw only, obviously thats hard to tell from our spot. But I do think a flush draw is a part of his range. Those min c/r could mean alot however. It could also be a ten or a mid pocket pair. I think raising while it has its merits will blow him off the mid pocket pairs which could give us action. The tens will win the maximum off us. While a raise would protect us against a fd, I think the benefits of calling outweigh the benefits of raising. Honestly, in a vacuum, I would probably call a heart turn and fold most rivers depending on bet sizing, but it varies so much. I think the standard play here is to call down barring any heart though in general.

[corsakh]

Question is, do we call the river.

[Profish2285]

Well its definitely close either way I would think. Im going to guess that villain will bluff a whiffed draw or bet some random pair often enough to make a call profitable. Again it really depends on bet sizing though because if hes betting all 3 streets youre probably behind more often than youre ahead.

[ama0330]

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Well Im not saying he has a flush draw only, obviously thats hard to tell from our spot. But I do think a flush draw is a part of his range. Those min c/r could mean alot however. It could also be a ten or a mid pocket pair. I think raising while it has its merits will blow him off the mid pocket pairs which could give us action. The tens will win the maximum off us. While a raise would protect us against a fd, I think the benefits of calling outweigh the benefits of raising. Honestly, in a vacuum, I would probably call a heart turn and fold most rivers depending on bet sizing, but it varies so much. I think the standard play here is to call down barring any heart though in general.

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It just seems to me as though if I am villain, I should be raising any two cards then betting the turn because you can't continue, and Im trying to think about a way to stop that as hero. I personally am happy to go broke against 44/Tx on this flop because Tx is a dumb call from the blinds and he can have JJ/QQ/FD which may put more money in on the flop but not the turn. I think the main thing is that I dont want to call twice on turn and river blanks and I definitely don't want to fold.

[corsakh]

Two thingies.

If he can have a T, he can have a flush draw.
If he can't have a T, he can't have a flush draw.

But

He can have a T because the pot is overlimped, its cheap for him and he has relative position.

[Profish2285]

I agree that calling is the suck and so is folding but dont you think raising and trying to get it in will fold out those random 77-JJ? As far as betting ATC so I cant continue, again that is why I would probably call any turn and fold on a decent number of rivers assuming a heart hit at some point and bet sizing. With that said, I dont think its too big of a concern because most villains arent thinking this way and he really has no idea what we hold.

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Two thingies.

If he can have a T, he can have a flush draw.
If he can't have a T, he can't have a flush draw.

But

He can have a T because the pot is overlimped, its cheap for him and he has relative position.

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So he could also have a fd and mid pocket pair, no? I could be off here I just feel like we get max value by calling and lose the most by raising.