(razz) Tournament hand - fold 5th?

[RustyBrooks]

Find me someone else, in the much better than us camp, who folds this hand. (Primarily I mean on 3rd. Although also I'd like to see who really like a fold on 5th, also...)

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
Find me someone else, in the much better than us camp, who folds this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

no

[RustyBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Find me someone else, in the much better than us camp, who folds this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

no

[/ QUOTE ]

Brevity is [...] wit

[SGspecial]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Find me someone else, in the much better than us camp, who folds this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

no

[/ QUOTE ]
+1

But I will elaborate. The situation in this particular hand is night and day different from the situation described by Huck Seed in the FTP guide, which I think is what you're referring to for the decision on 3rd st. Huck's argument was based on the fact that even an A23 can be a slight underdog if the board is full of dead cards, and if you have two opponents who are so strong that they are raising back and forth, it's almost certain that 3rd st will get capped if you play. That's a big difference (putting in 4 SB in a multiway pot) compared to this hand (putting in 1 SB in a HU pot vs. a short stack who may be desperate). Even if you were on the tournament or final table bubbles here, you're giving up a lot of cEV and tournament equity by folding to a significantly shorter stack.

[Praxising]

[ QUOTE ]
Find me someone else, in the much better than us camp, who folds this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]Why would I do that? To "prove" I am "right?" Rusty, I have no interest whatsoever in converting you to my practices. I express my views, how I came by them. You can express yours. I do not need to be right. I only need to be happy with my own choices.

SG, your interpretation of what you read is your interpretation, not anything that was actually said, that I recall. But I don't own the book, or have a copy in my possession, so I can't check the quotes.

What I have in my notes from having read the book that does seem to relate here: "Factors influencing playability of starting hands: whether others limped/raised or reraised - size of antes - upcards - opponents still to act - chip stack relative to limits."

Note that having a "starting hand" is presumed before one begins to take these other factors into account. So just having one isn't a recommendation to play. I believe these were the factors I was referring to in a previous post. I also have a note that says the upcards in Razz are more significant than in any other game. So that bad board takes on a lot of weight in light of this statement if we believe Forrest. Of course, he didn't give us any proof, it's just his opinion.

But the most salient point from the book that has a direct relation to this discussion is a comment by Seed about 5th street:

"Fold, even if marginally right to call - in a tournament, preserve your chips."

These are my notes and not exact quotes. Now, here is Forrest on the same 5th street issue:

"Stay in with the best 4 card draw."

The street in question:

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___???
Seat 7: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets


But then, Phil Ivey just reminded us not to do something just because it's in a book. To make up our own minds. And so we should.

[RustyBrooks]

Praxising: if you're going to claim that folding or not folding on 3rd is controversial, you're going to need to produce some controversy. That's all I'm saying in my post.

Honestly I think this is my last post on the subject, I don't think we find each other's arguments convincing and I guess that's that.

[Praxising]

[ QUOTE ]
Praxising: if you're going to claim that folding or not folding on 3rd is controversial, you're going to need to produce some controversy. That's all I'm saying in my post.

Honestly I think this is my last post on the subject, I don't think we find each other's arguments convincing and I guess that's that.

[/ QUOTE ]It isn't controversial, it is simply debatable. I'm for leaving it alone, but I want to say, yet again, I do not want to change your mind. I think your mind is just dandy as it is. My version of message board issues is exploration - because the vast majority of persons on message boards never post. So, articulating as many aspects of an issue as possible, which works best in the arena of disagreement, serves the community.

And is, yanno, fun.

SG - you want to put a coda on this thing?

[RustyBrooks]

Ah. I'm trying to change your mind.

[MickeyB105]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The thing is, he has like 1.2bb left when he bets 5th. So I am going to have to put in 2.2bb to win 6bb if my math is right. That's That's really the only thing that says to me, I'm gonna see a river on this one. I think realistically I'm only a 65:35 dog here! I'm getting like 2:1 to call down.

[/ QUOTE ]
Your maths are a little off here. His 300 extra chips isn't 0.2BB, it's less than 0.1. So you're getting pretty close to 3:1 to play for (his) stacks at this point. Really the only decision is between call all the way or raise on 5th.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. I think it's important to note who your opponent is too. Nothing WRONG with folding here if you don't want a (quasi)coin flip this late in the tourney though I suppose