(razz) tourney questions

[RustyBrooks]

Question 1:
First a general question:
In NLHE tournaments, your hand selection changes drastically the shorter stacked you get. Should the same happen in limit razz tournaments? Should I be throwing away hands with the 8 up since I'll have so much trouble playing them post-4th in anything except jam-or-fold mode? I'm most concerned about early position, particularly betting into a field with 2-4 lower cards.

Question 2:
another general question:
You have between 1 and 2 bb. Do you jam any 3 card 5? 3 card 6? 3 card 7? (Assume that there are a few cards you need out). My last hand in a $10 tournament today I had 256 and my opponent had a 6 up also. He had A68, which in bare terms gives me just like a 55:45 equity but there was an 8 and an A showing which makes it pretty much 50:50 I think. If I had just called 3rd, I would have folded 4th (I bricked, he didn't) or put the rest of my money in pretty bad. In this case, I raised, he 3bet, I capped all in. I lost it, of course, and felt like an idiot, but I think I should be taking coin flip gambles there, no?

Question 3: a specific question
I can't find the hand now, but I'll look it up later. It crippled me badly. Here's the basic situation....

I have A47 with the 7 up, a player with a 4 up bets, there is only one person to act after me and I opt to call and he calls also, with a 7 up.

On 4th we have
V1: xx47 bets..calls
Hero: A475 raises
V2: xx79 folds

5th, we both brick bad, he bets, I call
6th, I hit an 8, he bricks, so we have
V1: xx47KT
Hero: A475Q8

I'm a big favorite here. But I now have 2/3 of my stack in (villain started with double my stack so he can lose this hand). I have to assume from 4th and 5th that he has a 4 card 7, and will almost always call 6th. In a cash game I'd value bet this all day, but losing this hand will cripple me and 1 extra bb can be a huuuuuge difference. Should I bet or check here?

And Question 4:
I have 2bb left, and I look down at A68 in first position. There are several low cards after me. 1 of my pair outs is out, otherwise there are 3 dead cards I need. I complete, it gets raised and re-raised, calling would put me ALMOST all in, folding obviously leaves me with a little more than 1bb. Do I close my eyes and get all in? Is a fold even possible here?


Let me put it another way - today was a baaaaad day for tournaments, for me.

[kerze]

Q1 - When I get moderately short stacked, I don't play hands with an 8 showing in early position on 3rd with low cards left to act. If I am extremely shortstacked and I have a28 or 238 I might try and jam it though.

Q2 -I jam with any three card 7 at this point. I guess it might depend on the ante:bb ratio - in a high ante game I am jamming for sure. A 3 card 7 will only come around once every 23 hands. The antes and bring-ins will eat you up

Q3 - I bet all day on 6th. You need to bet for value. You say 1bb can be a huuge difference. Well if you win (which you are a favorite to do) you will be getting an extra bb as well.

Q4 - this one is a little more difficult. I think before you decide to complete your 8, you have to ask yourself, what will I do if gets 3 bet around to me. I think if I complete the 8 then I'm committing myself to see the hand through even though my equity might not justify it.

[RustyBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]

Q3 - I bet all day on 6th. You need to bet for value. You say 1bb can be a huuge difference. Well if you win (which you are a favorite to do) you will be getting an extra bb as well.


[/ QUOTE ]

I do agree with you, except I lost this hand, and afterwards I wanted one more bb [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] The thing is, say I have 6bb, and by the time I get to 6th, I've put in 3bb. If he improves on 7th he will almost certainly bet, and I will have to call. I can't bet 7th, though, I don't think.
So.
When I bet 5th: I make +4bb => 10bb when I win, I lose 5bb => 1bb when I lose.
When I don't bet 5th: I make +3bb = 9bb when I win, I lose 4bb => 2bb when I lose
So the difference when I win or lose is only 1bb. But when I lose, that difference is 100% of my stack size, and when I win, 11% of my stack size.

The more bb I start with, the clearer a bet on 6th is. Or maybe I'm wrong and you should put your last dollar in on 6th no matter what.

[Praxising]

[ QUOTE ]
Q1 - When I get moderately short stacked, I don't play hands with an 8 showing in early position on 3rd with low cards left to act. If I am extremely shortstacked and I have a28 or 238 I might try and jam it though.

[/ QUOTE ]You know how I hate 8s, right? But I think not playing them because you are moderately shortstacked might be a mistake. You still have enough to do some damage, you surely have a good reputation at your table. Maybe this is all wrong but in a Razz trny I think when you start to get a little short, the last thing you want to do is tighten up.
[ QUOTE ]
Q2 -I jam with any three card 7 at this point. I guess it might depend on the ante:bb ratio - in a high ante game I am jamming for sure. A 3 card 7 will only come around once every 23 hands. The antes and bring-ins will eat you up

[/ QUOTE ] I'm curious about the source of the stat - from the Mike Caro statistics, it seems like you get a 7 or better every eleven hands. But you know how that is, you could get four in a row or none in an hour. I'd jam here, too.
[ QUOTE ]
Q4 - this one is a little more difficult. I think before you decide to complete your 8, you have to ask yourself, what will I do if gets 3 bet around to me. I think if I complete the 8 then I'm committing myself to see the hand through even though my equity might not justify it.

[/ QUOTE ]Yeah, and it might be time to just decide to live or die. But it really is that decision.

[kerze]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A 3 card 7 will only come around once every 23 hands. The antes and bring-ins will eat you up

[/ QUOTE ] I'm curious about the source of the stat - from the Mike Caro statistics, it seems like you get a 7 or better every eleven hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right prax - its actually once every 10 hands. I was doing the calculation late at night and I don't know how I screwed it up. Maybe it seems like once every 23 hands.

For your 1st card you have a 28/52 chance of getting a 7 or lower. For the 2nd card it is 24/51 for getting another card 7 or lower that doesn't pair your 1st. For the 3rd card is is 20/50 for getting yet another one. So (28*24*20)/(52*51*50) = 10.13% which works out to about once very 10 hands. A three card 6 is once every 17 hands. and a three card 5 is once every 35 hands.

This actually could change my answer a bit but still by the time you get another 3 card 7, your chips may be pretty low from the antes and if you do double up its not by much. Of course you don't have to have a 3 card 7 to play - if I have (aT)2 against opponents who have upcards of 9 or better I'm completing with my short stack

[Praxising]

[ QUOTE ]
You're right prax - its actually once every 10 hands. I was doing the calculation late at night and I don't know how I screwed it up. Maybe it seems like once every 23 hands.

[/ QUOTE ] LOL! No kidding, huh? I have this stack of 11 poker chips and I take one off every time I ante when I "sit down" at a table. If I go through the stack and don't get a 7 that stands up, I move to another table.

I agree with you about jamming it, I don't think you can win a trny unless you play really focused poker for a long time and are willing to die.

[RustyBrooks]

Yeah, I'm thinking it might actually be worth dumping hands that have an 8 up, and waiting for hands that APPEAR better. The lower your stack gets, the more you have to gain by stealing. When your hand is decent, like a 3 card 8, you are definitely going to get played back at by hands that are of similar strength that might fold if you were showing an A, 2, 3, 4 or 5. (That is, a big stack should probably call you with AT2 if you're showing an 8, but might not want to if you're showing a 2)

The hand that knocked me out of the satellite... I have gone back and forth on it all day. I was in bad shape because it was 4 handed with 4 people who appeared to have quite good hands, and even if they have hands only as good as mine I will lose 3/4 times. But, when I win, I will quadruple-up and be in pretty good shape to cash. Wheras doubling up from 2bb just puts me in a slightly less tenuous position.

I think I have a tendency to THINK that I need to gamble in spots when I probably don't.

[Andy B]

[ QUOTE ]
LOL! No kidding, huh? I have this stack of 11 poker chips and I take one off every time I ante when I "sit down" at a table. If I go through the stack and don't get a 7 that stands up, I move to another table.

[/ QUOTE ]

What on earth for? They use the same randomizer on the next table.

[Praxising]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
LOL! No kidding, huh? I have this stack of 11 poker chips and I take one off every time I ante when I "sit down" at a table. If I go through the stack and don't get a 7 that stands up, I move to another table.

[/ QUOTE ]

What on earth for? They use the same randomizer on the next table.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can have a superstition if I want. Makes me feel like I have control over the uncontrollable. And at the next table, I might randomly sit down in a seat in a better part of the algorithm for a Razz player.