(razz) Why do they bet here? What should I do? - Page 3

Andy B · #21 09-12-2007, 01:03 AM

I don't think that anyone is suggesting that everyone who plays $1/2 is a poor player. There are, however, a lot more poor players than good players at that level. You're a lot better off assuming that an unknown player plays poorly than you are assuming that he plays well.

SGspecial · #22 09-12-2007, 10:48 AM

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I don't think that anyone is suggesting that everyone who plays $1/2 is a poor player. There are, however, a lot more poor players than good players at that level. You're a lot better off assuming that an unknown player plays poorly than you are assuming that he plays well.

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I can't argue with that. All I'm arguing with is the assertion that the quality of play improves appreciably at 5/10 and up. Unless it's a table with Adanthar, chips, spoon, biggrapes, ifishharder, and me, it's not going to be a tough table.

Praxising · #23 09-12-2007, 01:31 PM

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I don't think that anyone is suggesting that everyone who plays $1/2 is a poor player. There are, however, a lot more poor players than good players at that level. You're a lot better off assuming that an unknown player plays poorly than you are assuming that he plays well.

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I can't argue with that. All I'm arguing with is the assertion that the quality of play improves appreciably at 5/10 and up. Unless it's a table with Adanthar, chips, spoon, biggrapes, ifishharder, and me, it's not going to be a tough table.

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Then we will expect every one of you to show up and play the Razztoberfest so we can all benefit from the experience.

I agree with Andy and share Randy's feeling we were insulted, even as I am sure it wasn't meant as a personal comment. So - I'm over it.

OK, I'm not so great when I have no luck. But I watch poker on the net - which some think is odd, but I find it instructive and I've seen at least two of the players SG mentioned donk off a load of chips on Razz hands I could see should've been folded. So, we are all vulnerable to donkpokeritis.

I agree with Andy that it is the quantity of bad players, the ratio to good players, that changes as you get higher. But I also know that some of these stratospheric players (like 15/30) come bottom-feeding at 1/2, so I'm not assuming anything until I see them play.

adanthar · #24 09-12-2007, 01:55 PM

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Unless it's a table with Adanthar, chips, spoon, biggrapes, ifishharder, and me, it's not going to be a tough table.

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hell, I don't even pretend to be that good at razz, I just get poker.

the fact that I'm likely a winning player at anything below 50/100 is ridiculously funny.

SGspecial · #25 09-12-2007, 02:12 PM

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Then we will expect every one of you to show up and play the Razztoberfest so we can all benefit from the experience.

I agree with Andy and share Randy's feeling we were insulted, even as I am sure it wasn't meant as a personal comment. So - I'm over it.

OK, I'm not so great when I have no luck. But I watch poker on the net - which some think is odd, but I find it instructive and I've seen at least two of the players SG mentioned donk off a load of chips on Razz hands I could see should've been folded. So, we are all vulnerable to donkpokeritis.

I agree with Andy that it is the quantity of bad players, the ratio to good players, that changes as you get higher. But I also know that some of these stratospheric players (like 15/30) come bottom-feeding at 1/2, so I'm not assuming anything until I see them play.

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Thanks for the invite, Prax, but I typically am busy sat. afternoons so I can't make any promises. I like the idea of the tourney tho, and anything that helps get some excitement going about the game of razz. We have to go a long way to overcome the Norman Chad insultfest of 2004.

About the quality of players, you make a good point that no one is immune to bad play. The best among us make rash decisions, go on tilt, showboat, etc. and will donk off chips from time to time. The more general issue is what makes a player good? There are many aspects to this overall skill such as hand reading, math fundamentals, deception, adapting to opponents, etc. Since there are very few "perfect" players, some players weaknesses will play into others' strength so player 1 may be a donk vs. player 2, but a very good player otherwise. Here is a copy of a post I made on the subject of dealing with donkeys from "another" poker site:

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Donkeys actually have an advantage over other marginal players. By "donkeys" I assume you're talking about either horrible calling stations, or complete maniacs. These types of players will only make one type of mistake, either calling too often or betting too often, while other marginal players are always trying to figure out the right play but not always making it. Therefore they are open to all kinds of mistakes: bad calls, bad bets, and bad folds.

Part of the problem is also due to playing styles. Like a complex game of Roshambo, in poker some styles will beat others when skill levels are roughly even, while losing to a third kind. A lot of donkeys get by on the fact that they make other players adjust to their style, and only good players are up to the task. Observe the donkeys, get a read on their style and habits if not their cards, and then you can exploit them.

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RustyBrooks · #26 09-12-2007, 02:42 PM

Basically all I was saying is that sometimes I get the feeling that the advice I get on hands isn't realistic, because it's colored by higher stakes players' perceptions that my opponents are necessarily awful and will not be paying attention to what I do, thinking about what I might have, considering strategies, etc.

I don't mean to single Adanthar out here, it's just that this thread contains two big examples from him:

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who cares, just raise fourth for value.

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dude, it's 1/2, they don't notice or care.

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I reread SOP yesterday and actually Sklansky recommends that I bet here and/or raise this guy, because my 3 card hand is definitely better than his, and I will be in position for the whole hand unless he pairs. That's something I hadn't considered too closely until recently.

RustyBrooks · #27 09-12-2007, 02:54 PM

(To be clear, I do not feel insulted by Adanthar's comment. Clearly I care what players do and I pay attention)

adanthar · #28 09-12-2007, 02:56 PM

you're a 2+2'er = you generally do notice. that's implied.

RustyBrooks · #29 09-12-2007, 02:58 PM

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you're a 2+2'er = you generally do notice. that's implied.

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Right - that wasn't my problem with the statement.

jbrennen · #30 09-12-2007, 03:01 PM

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About the quality of players, you make a good point that no one is immune to bad play. The best among us make rash decisions, go on tilt, showboat, etc. and will donk off chips from time to time. The more general issue is what makes a player good?

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Dan Harrington's squeeze play, 2004 WSOP main event final table. He put about half of his stack on the line with 6-2 offsuit. There is a very fine line between genius and donkey.

In that case, Dan had to trust in his read, that Arieh and Raymer couldn't call his bet. (And there were others yet to act behind Dan -- David Williams mucked his A-Q to Dan's bet.) I'm sure that any good poker player has many moments like this where you come off looking like a genius or an idiot based on whether your read was accurate. And unless you write a book like Dan did, nobody's ever going to see your genius moves, but they'll sure remember the times you got caught red-handed making a move that turned out wrong.