TT in Kill Pot

[sternroolz]

Raise the flop.

Most likely villian will just call.

If villian 3 bets, peel 1.

Check behind on the turn. You have a 8 out draw to the functional nuts and quite possibly a 10 is good as well.

Calling the river UI is dependant, but I almost always call a river bet UI if villian just called the flop raise.

[Nate.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
DesertCat--

My standard play is definitely not to fold the flop in that spot in that game. People get too check-call-ish with their aces, which means that (by Bayes) it's just too likely they're getting funky with something else. I also think you'll get three-bet too often if you raise (though maybe not in a kill pot? hmm...), so I like the call.

On the turn I think you have to just call. Nothing's folding--remember that he would probably play KK/QQ, at least, differently preflop--and you have a lot of outs, and so forth. If you call in tempo you have the added benefit of people decently often thinking you're in call-down mode and giving up on bluffs or even (for muddy-thinking reasons) some value-bets.

If the turn goes bet-call and the river bricks off and he bets, you're in a tough spot. Me, I just look into his soul and usually fold.

Good to see you posting hands,

--Nate

[/ QUOTE ]

Whatz up Nate,

Haven't you seen people in AZ take this line way too much with complete crap to ever fold the river? Obviously the way the OP decided to play it the river becomes a pretty easy fold, but if you decide to put in minimum action on each street I think the river is an auto call.

[/ QUOTE ]

drbk2--

Hm, you're probably right. A lot of it is that I'm pretty confident in my physical reads at CAZ. Another big part is that I've got an unbluffable image there and after I call the turn in tempo a lot of people just stare me down and check and mumble something about how they were never ever going to run me off the hand.

All that said, you're right; vs. an unknown, when you take the line I describe to the river, it is a standard call.

As a little side note, I miss all you guys (both in this specific 2+2 subforum and at CAZ), and if I weren't so busy with school I'd be posting way more. Also, if I ever played LHE any more I'd probably post.

All my best,

--Nate

[DesertCat]

I want to thank everyone who responded in this thread. I'm really a 10-150 player who plays a few hours each day just as a break from work. I'm trying to make 20-40 my backup game when the 10-150 doesn't run, and also because it's a lot faster and more enjoyable than the 5-150 quasi NL Casino AZ runs. I realize my questions are likely to be more basic and less interesting than most. You'll soon tire of telling me to stop doing bonehead things, but before you get sick of me, I just want you to know I appreciate that everyone took time to help me.

- Randy

[Nate.]

Randy--

The modesty is nice to see, but really, no worries, this hand was plenty interesting, and (importantly) is the sort of hand that can be discussed meaningfully over the Internet.

As for your general LHE skills... you're capable of thinking clearly about poker, and you're more modest than many here who you play better than, so I like both your chances of contributing to this forum and your chances of getting very good at LHE.

Best of luck, and let me know if you're ever in NYC,

--Nate

[emerson]

[ QUOTE ]
Casino AZ 20-40. I haven't been at table long, but villain appeared to be very aggressive and a bit loose. I had been aggressive, though I showed trips on the last hand as Hass folded to me (again) on a turn raise.

I'm in MP, Villain on my right. Folded to him and he raises. Folded all around back to me on the kill, and I make it three bets with TT. Villain calls.

Flop A87 rainbow. Villain bets into me. I call, thinking it's WA/WB. Turn is a 9. Villain bets into me again...

[/ QUOTE ]

One opponent and one overcard to your pair, decent pot, you can't fold. I would raise either on the flop, or make a free showdown raise when you pick up the open ender on the turn.

If you raise on the flop he may check the turn if he has an ace with a weak kicker, getting you to showdown cheaper.

The fact that this is a kill pot increases the chance that his hand is not real strong. Many aggressive players will lower their raising standards in kill pots given that the reward for a successful steal is much greater. He has to represent an ace on this flop whether he has one or not. I think the donk makes him less likely to have one. You three bet the flop so it seems that if he had a big ace he'd go for a check raise on the flop rather than betting out.

[Nate.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Casino AZ 20-40. I haven't been at table long, but villain appeared to be very aggressive and a bit loose. I had been aggressive, though I showed trips on the last hand as Hass folded to me (again) on a turn raise.

I'm in MP, Villain on my right. Folded to him and he raises. Folded all around back to me on the kill, and I make it three bets with TT. Villain calls.

Flop A87 rainbow. Villain bets into me. I call, thinking it's WA/WB. Turn is a 9. Villain bets into me again...

[/ QUOTE ]

One opponent and one overcard to your pair, decent pot, you can't fold. I would raise either on the flop, or make a free showdown raise when you pick up the open ender on the turn.

If you raise on the flop he may check the turn if he has an ace with a weak kicker, getting you to showdown cheaper.

The fact that this is a kill pot increases the chance that his hand is not real strong. Many aggressive players will lower their raising standards in kill pots given that the reward for a successful steal is much greater. He has to represent an ace on this flop whether he has one or not. I think the donk makes him less likely to have one. You three bet the flop so it seems that if he had a big ace he'd go for a check raise on the flop rather than betting out.

[/ QUOTE ]

emerson--

Have you read the thread? The reasons why this is not a free showdown raise have been thoroughly discussed. (Hint: think about the word "free," and whether or not this showdown will be, under various cirumstances.)

[ QUOTE ]
One opponent and one overcard to your pair, decent pot, you can't fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I've already said that I don't like folding this hand, but this sure isn't the reason why. This is sort of like "call with anything on the end if the pot is substantial"--it often coincides with correct advice but is a totally poisonous way to think about the game.

--Nate

[emerson]

The showdown is free or not at all. It is basically simply a decision that you will put a maximum of two more bets in the pot to get to showdown, thus you try putting them in on the turn. You fold unimproved to a river donk. People go after kill pots very aggresively. You have to fight back with this kind of hand.

[DesertCat]

[ QUOTE ]
The showdown is free or not at all. It is basically simply a decision that you will put a maximum of two more bets in the pot to get to showdown, thus you try putting them in on the turn. You fold unimproved to a river donk. People go after kill pots very aggresively. You have to fight back with this kind of hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like the idea of raising the flop to find out where I'm at, esp. in this game where people seem to donk into you with all sorts of stuff. And why would an Ace lead into you when they can check-raise?

But raising on the turn might mean I'm getting a free showdown from AQ-AJ, probably AT, and maybe folding KK-JJ. Every other hand (AK, AA, 99-77, A9,A8) 3 bets me, and won't give a free showdown. It seems raising means I'm too often putting in 3 bets way behind and rarely getting a free showdown/or folding a better hand with this board.

And Villain was in late EP or early MP (IIRC he was third to act). It's hard for me to think he was raising a completely random hand like a small pair or mid suited connector and even if he does JT,98,87 & 65 have me crushed. It's just so unlikely he has something I can beat (22-66, T9,76 QJ, QT, KQ, J9).

I think I understand the logic of getting to the free showdown, raise when you might have the best hand but aren't sure, maybe fold some better hands, and pay the same amount if you miss. But with this board it seems we rarely have the best hand, and rarely can get a free show down or avoid a 3 bet.

[Nate.]

[ QUOTE ]
The showdown is free or not at all. It is basically simply a decision that you will put a maximum of two more bets in the pot to get to showdown, thus you try putting them in on the turn. You fold unimproved to a river donk. People go after kill pots very aggresively. You have to fight back with this kind of hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

emerson--

Folding an OESD would be a catastrophe, as has been mentioned in this thread, which again I suspect you haven't read.

Fighting hard for kill pots is actually very opponent-specific, and I certainly don't think that >50% fight particularly hard, especially when they're not in LP. Many loose-passives stay loose-passive; lots of standard tight live players stay tight, because after all their tightness is largely a fear of putting money in the pot, and when there's a kill there's more money to lose.

--Nate

[emerson]

Nate:

He describes the opponent as very aggressive and a bit loose. I agree with your comments above. I think, specifically against this type of opponent in a kill pot, that we have to stay in with only one overcard to our pair, even if it is an ace. And at some point, we might consider playing back. It is not unthinkable that a bigger pocket pair could fold.