Weird bubble hand

[flyty86]

I can't find the HH but I will post it up anyway.

UTG 4000
Hero OTB 3000
SB 200
BB 7800

blinds are at 150/300.


UTG folds. Hero is dealt K8s and calls BB to try to knock out shorty. SB(shorty) goes all in. BB checks.

Flop - K 6 2 rainbow.
BB bets 600. Hero???


edit*** I had to change the blinds

[DevinLake]

ughh...call and re-evaluate.

[flyty86]

yep so...

hero calls 600.

turn brings a T.
BB bets 600.

[DevinLake]

hahaha...what a great spot you've found urself in.

I guess I fold now at this point. 1800 leaves you a fairly safe cushion if shorties HIG here. 1200 would be getting sketchy, and you're not guaranteed a free showdown.

Edit: I've now seen your edit. Now I think I fold the flop. This is no longer a min bet, giving you worse odds to call.

[Fammy]

Just my opinion, but this seems like it SHOULD HAVE BEEN the standard understood collusion issue. The pot is not large, there is no side pot, you have a weak kicker with little chance of improving, but the BB does not necessarily know this. Given the above, if the BB has been a player who AT ALL understands the game, I am thinking he may actually have (or at least I would hope he had) a monster hand. As such, looking at this situation, the risk of calling is very high, the benefit seems to be pretty darn low...I am folding this one...and if the shorty survives with a hand, that had I not folded, he would have otherwise lost, I am calling the BB a donk repeatedly for the entire rest of the tourny and maybe even seeking him out as an observer to continue to notify the world of his royal donkness.

Fammy

[DevinLake]

Fammy, if he's got a piece of this flop, betting out is not donkish. He protects his equity in his hand, and he may get Hero to fold better hands.

It is better for the big stacks situation if shorty wins the pot than if Hero does.

[flyty86]

[ QUOTE ]
and if the shorty survives with a hand, that had I not folded, he would have otherwise lost, I am calling the BB a donk repeatedly for the entire rest of the tourny and maybe even seeking him out as an observer to continue to notify the world of his royal donkness.


[/ QUOTE ]

LOL WOW.

[Fammy]

I would agree with you if there was more of a side pot, but as the edited version shows (I wrote it with the intial blinds posted) the BB and the hero are playing for a side pot of T100. While there is some hand equity, if I am sitting in the BB, I am looking at this situation and seeing a chance to win T100 (1.4% of his stack). OTOH, I am going to get called / raised by very strong hands. Am I going to call if the hero decides to play back at me?

I have to look at this situation from a +$EV than a +tEV. If the hero happens to win after there has been major action it will change the standings BUT, if the hero happens to win when both players check it down, it is NOT going to change the standings dramatically, yet the remaining players with be ITM.

The only argument I see for this play depends on how the BB has been playing. If he has been bullying the table with the threat of bubbling one of the other players before the shorty bubbles out, then I could see taking the chance as he would actually be happy that the SB survives so he can continue to pound on the others. If that has not been the case, however, this should be get rid of the shorty and play for 1st.

Fammy

[Finnisher]

I'd probably push the flop unless BB is very tight, how bad is that? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

You're ahead of SB and BB doesn't necessarily have you beat altho he won't fold if he has you beat. You're very likely to get at least 3rd, SB is probably drawing very thin (his range is about 100%) whether BB calls or not.

[ QUOTE ]
Fammy, if he's got a piece of this flop, betting out is not donkish. He protects his equity in his hand, and he may get Hero to fold better hands.

It is better for the big stacks situation if shorty wins the pot than if Hero does.

[/ QUOTE ]
BB is probably ahead of SB with A-high too, SB has a random hand. Even tho SB's survival is a good thing to BBm, betting with a bluff (= no K to many) doesn't usually do that much good for BB's bullying ability, bluffing with a shortie all in in the hand is really bad for FE if the other players are the sort that gets upset by things like that and most are. Actually I play spots like this too weak if I was BB, people just can't stand it if you help the small stack survive.

Thoughts?

[pauliewalnuts]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd probably push the flop unless BB is very tight, how bad is that? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]



[/ QUOTE ]


I agree with this. I cant see myself folding this hand unless BB was abnormally passive. We almost always have the shorty beat and I hate taking a chance and folding to some idiot betting a draw.

Edit: Well there doesnt appear to really be any draws on this board, but I'm still probably taking it to showdown.