Some thoughts/clarifications

[Nielsio]

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A state police officer is also part hero. The things that drove him to be a cop in this society would often mean he'd be a full fledged hero in a free society.

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Wait, what?

The police/military are the ones who have completely sold their soul to the system at the expense of their fellow man. That's the complete opposite of being a hero. It's only a 'hero' in the statist/double think sense of the word.

A real hero is one who has moral integrity and says NO despite how people judge him.

[ALawPoker]

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A state police officer is also part hero. The things that drove him to be a cop in this society would often mean he'd be a full fledged hero in a free society.

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Wait, what?

The police/military are the ones who have completely sold their soul to the system at the expense of their fellow man. That's the complete opposite of being a hero. It's only a 'hero' in the statist/double think sense of the word.

A real hero is one who has moral integrity and says NO despite how people judge him.

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I think the desire and the willingness to defend yourself is admirable. I do not think the state does this effectively (and thus the result is not admirable).

What I mean is that the instincts that tell a marine to be a marine (since he lives in a world where he is led to believe that protection of his state is so very right) are the same instincts that would make him more likely to act in what I would consider a "heroic" way in a free society. He's probably more likely to be the guy jumping in the lake to save the old lady. Do you disagree with that assumption?

So I'll look at the big picture (state law enforcement) and say, well that's not heroism. But I think most of the individual actors have a heroic nature, but are misguided.


(Which leads me to wonder if people who act "bravely" are actually more likely to follow a path of misguidance in the first place. Maybe it requires a certain disregard for yourself as an individual to ever act as a "hero".)

[ALawPoker]

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What was your suggestion again? Worldwide communism?

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Ok, if we must engage in sophisticated debate using sarcasm then i'll try: yes, searching for an alternative way to create a free society in the absense of the state is definetly going to lead to the assumption that 'worldwide communism' is the way forward?!!!?!?!???! Seriously Nielso, you resort to sarcasm and McCarthyism in one thread.
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I see no logical merit to socialism. Sorry, I don't. Do you want me to lie and say I do?


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No, but I think it is ignorant (and incorrect) to dismiss all pollitcal phillosophy that defends socialsim as failing to be "logical" in its defense. Certainly your amendmet that you don't think anything could ever 'justify' socialism to you is perectly understandable and your personal opinion.

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Zast, three things:

First, please don't attribute quotes to me that are not mine. Make two separate replies, rather than use quick reply, if you also want to quote Nielsio.

Secondly, what part of "to me" did you not understand in the original sentence? When I changed my wording from "defensible" to "justifiable" I didn't even realize I had done this let alone that it meant anything. Not sure why you think one is palatable and the other isn't. Yes there are ways to argue in socialism's favor, but I consider those arguments myopic. All I've been saying the entire time is that I'm convinced socialism has no merit, so broad "capitalism vs socialism" discussion is of no interest to me.

Third, spelling.

[zasterguava]

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What was your suggestion again? Worldwide communism?

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Ok, if we must engage in sophisticated debate using sarcasm then i'll try: yes, searching for an alternative way to create a free society in the absense of the state is definetly going to lead to the assumption that 'worldwide communism' is the way forward?!!!?!?!???! Seriously Nielso, you resort to sarcasm and McCarthyism in one thread.
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I see no logical merit to socialism. Sorry, I don't. Do you want me to lie and say I do?


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No, but I think it is ignorant (and incorrect) to dismiss all pollitcal phillosophy that defends socialsim as failing to be "logical" in its defense. Certainly your amendmet that you don't think anything could ever 'justify' socialism to you is perectly understandable and your personal opinion.

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Zast, three things:

First, please don't attribute quotes to me that are not mine. Make two separate replies, rather than use quick reply, if you also want to quote Nielsio.

Secondly, what part of "to me" did you not understand in the original sentence? When I changed my wording from "defensible" to "justifiable" I didn't even realize I had done this let alone that it meant anything. Not sure why you think one is palatable and the other isn't. Yes there are ways to argue in socialism's favor, but I consider those arguments myopic. All I've been saying the entire time is that I'm convinced socialism has no merit, so broad "capitalism vs socialism" discussion is of no interest to me.

Third, spelling.

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Firstly, I addressed Nielso in the first quote: reading comprehension.

Secondly, its very hard to get through to you. Again, saying that something can not be defended logically is completely different to saying something can not be justified. Justification is subjective to your morality: the arguments logic is not subjective to you. If you say that there has never been a logical defense of socialism I can confidently say YOU ARE WRONG (note; i am not a state socialist). This is very basic stuff and I provided the Nazis analogy to prove this.

Thirdly, sorry I dont always have time to proof read. Ironically, I just got back from a scrabble match which I won; so my feelings regarding my spelling aren't hurt too much.

[ALawPoker]

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Firstly, I addressed Nielso in the first quote: reading comprehension.

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::rolls eyes::

It's just annoying to see your name in the 'Re:' field, and then immediately see a quote from someone else.

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If you say that there has never been a logical defense of socialism I can confidently say YOU ARE WRONG

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Sure, there have been logical defenses. They've all been myopic. If I wrongly assume A, I can logically prove B and then C. Sure. But in the end, as is all I meant in the OP, my conclusion is that socialism does not hold. If you have a different conclusion, you're entitled to it, but I don't see it.

I'm sorry if a sentence that is irrelevant to the rest of my post bothers you because it might be semantically inaccurate.

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Thirdly, sorry I dont always have time to proof read. Ironically, I just got back from a scrabble match which I won; so my feelings regarding my spelling aren't hurt too much.

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Congrats. I bet that 9-year-old didn't know what hit him. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[ALawPoker]

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And yes, the choice has massive affects on your personal relationships. And that is exactly what you are affraid of. And there lies the beauty of it all. Once you get rid of comformist relationships you will realize how beautiful your life will finally become, when you can FINALLY be yourself, WITHOUT having to fear ridicule from people who CANNOT be themselves, because THEY TOO are affraid of being true to their nature and their natural freedoms.

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I guess that's the thing though. I don't want to rid myself of my current relationships. I value my friends and family as ends and not means to an end; so riding myself of those relationships (if you meant it so literally) is not pleasant.

Something I don't quite get about Ayn Rand (and that's not to say that you or any ACer necessarily is a "Randian", but I think it's worth saying) is that the whole belief system (correct me if I'm wrong, all I know of her is some Youtube clip someone linked in SMP) revolves around the idea that suicide or waste of life is understood to be bad. Well, my idea is that maybe suicide (in the literal sense) is the ideal, but we are too biased by our human condition to act on it. Life must be biased to think life is good, right? It seems like all other actions are just meant to approach but never reach comfort.

What does that mean regarding this discussion? I don't know. But I feel like we're so biased by our condition anyways that comfort wins out over my motivation to do good things.

You've basically convinced me. Well, I don't know if "you" have convinced me or if posting and thinking made it inevitable, but you certainly helped. I just know I can't act on it and would be a hypocrite to call myself that. So, I keep coming back to the idea that maybe comfort even if seemingly objectively destructive is OK or even good.

But basically, I am on your side. The rest is just rationalizations for why I probably won't ever act that way.

[Copernicus]

"And yes, the choice has massive affects on your personal relationships. And that is exactly what you are affraid of. And there lies the beauty of it all. Once you get rid of comformist relationships you will realize how beautiful your life will finally become, when you can FINALLY be yourself, WITHOUT having to fear ridicule from people who CANNOT be themselves, because THEY TOO are affraid of being true to their nature and their natural freedoms."

LMFAO. Youve managed to take pomposity to a new level. Youve also managed to find your way to my ignore list with this drivel.

[Nielsio]

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"And yes, the choice has massive affects on your personal relationships. And that is exactly what you are affraid of. And there lies the beauty of it all. Once you get rid of comformist relationships you will realize how beautiful your life will finally become, when you can FINALLY be yourself, WITHOUT having to fear ridicule from people who CANNOT be themselves, because THEY TOO are affraid of being true to their nature and their natural freedoms."

LMFAO. Youve managed to take pomposity to a new level. Youve also managed to find your way to my ignore list with this drivel.

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That's a good example of the ridicule I was talking about.

[Nielsio]

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But basically, I am on your side. The rest is just rationalizations for why I probably won't ever act that way.

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Give it time [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Once the eyes are transformed, the rest follows naturally.