Smooth-Calling your Button: Always a Mistake? NL

[XxPenguinxX]

Collin

To refer to the particular situation you describe.

Firstly, I don't think you should have a play in advance. Say this is three hands in, and you have raised your first two buttons, I'd probably fold. Say you've limped once and folded once, I might raise, etc.

You hit upon it at the end of your second paragraph - it is worth trying almost everything at the start of the match (and I'm assuming HUSNG here) to develop your reads at a quicker rate - the chip price is worth paying. In my experience, the edge in HUSNGs goes to the player who can gather and use information the quickest - there's just so much of it there.

There are also (and I might get flamed for this) types of opponents against whom you should never fold preflop, so you should just be deciding whether to limp or raise.

[jay_shark]

I agree Collin , I think limping with something like j4 is reasonable . It's not the best hand to be playing in a raised pot even with position . Besides , even if raising is positive EV , doesn't preclude limping from being positive EV as well .

On the other hand , if your opponent folds often to your raises , then I believe raising is superior to limping with that type of hand . If your opponent calls all your raises , then limping is better .

[KakiTee]

limping some hands at 5/10NL+ is probably ok (depending on image/opponent), but at lower stakes it is just more profitable ($$/hr wise) to raise or fold the button IMO, especially when it keeps gameflow going.

[XxPenguinxX]

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I agree Collin , I think limping with something like j4 is reasonable . It's not the best hand to be playing in a raised pot even with position . Besides , even if raising is positive EV , doesn't preclude limping from being positive EV as well .

On the other hand , if your opponent folds often to your raises , then I believe raising is superior to limping with that type of hand . If your opponent calls all your raises , then limping is better .

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Jay - to summarise your correct assessment, everything in HU NL depends on your opponent. There is no other manifestation of poker where the cards are so irrelevant to so many hands.

[jay_shark]

I agree Penguin .

I think the decision whether or not to limp, fold , raise has more to do with your opponents' tendencies then the actual value of the cards itself .

Heads up poker is more about your opponents and less about your cards . This doesn't mean you ignore your cards completely , but that there should be more emphasis on evaluating your opponent as quickly as possible ; figure him out before he figures you out .

[PrimordialAA]

Ok, I think we have drifted away from the original topic a bit, the conversation isn't whether limping or raising is positive EV, sure, both can be, the question is why are we playing 50bb deep as raise/fold when limping gives you 3:1 in position.

Collin, another distinction I believe is is this situation we are talking about HU cash or HU SNG, will blinds be increasing, can we rebuy, etc. ?

[TNixon]

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the question is why are we playing 50bb deep as raise/fold when limping gives you 3:1 in position.

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This is something that I can't help but wonder myself.

As far as I can figure, the *only* reason to fold, if your opponent is perfectly happy to let you limp a significant percentage of the time (and as far as I can tell, most people are happy to do just that) is for image.

But is it really that big of an advantage to have a "tight" image at a heads-up table? Against the typical player, there seem to be just as many disadvantages to having a tight image as there are advantages.

And after going through a pretty long streak without getting paid off on any of my monsters (which is something that seemed to happen with great regularity before I started playing raise/fold), I'm starting to wonder if the advantages are really advantages at all.

Maybe when I move beyond $50 HUSNGs, it will be important, but against the caliber of player that I'm up against most of the time, I'm not sure that having a tight image is really buying me anything at all. Most of my opponents are still just playing their hands, and my bets will only get respect depending on what they have or don't have.

Or maybe this is one of the unquantifiable differences between turbos and regulars? Maybe a tight image pays off more in the turbos, where you get to higher blind levels much more quickly? Most of my regular games are over or fairly well decided before the blinds hit 25/50 on Full Tilt.

[ChicagoRy]

I think the image paying off thing is very overrated unless you are making drastic changes to your game early on, I.E. instead of playing like a maniac you are playing a little LAG on button and nitty OOP. Sure you're going to notice an image change if you change your game drastically, but overall opponents play fairly tight and play their hands in the end of the game (It may be a lot different overall on sites other than PS). The few that play more aggressive are usually too aggressive, very few players mix it up well in the big blinds.

As to the question of J4o limping. It's the sort of hand that you have to be very comfortable playing OTB early. You can very easily overplay or miss the +EV that you want to have to limp this hand. Early on there are less reads, wider ranges and you're holding a more marginal hand deep stacked, good players can easily turn this combination into a -EV play.

Weighing in all the positives and negatives of the play, it is a lot easier for a majority of players to probably just fold it preflop, the level of the opponent's play is so exploitable in more certain areas that require less advanced skill to beat.

[cwar]

I fold J4o at my level of SNGs because limping with 50bb with weak hands is a play that my opponents (90% of them) will exploit, case closed. If they didnt I would limp it.

[creedofhubris]

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It depends how much your opponent sucks. The more he sucks, the better idea it is to limp.



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Can you expand on this a little. Are you simply talking about limping if villains will never raise your limps when you hand is weak. Or does it go further to include the weaker villains who never fold pre to raises anyway and will not fold any part even to 2 barrells. If it does include the latter it would kind of make sense to allow you to play small ball with your weaker hands whilst punishing them with raises and value bets with your stronger ones.

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If he's passive and never raises your limps, you limp your bad hands (which would ordinarily be mucked) because he's not going to raise them out of the pot, and therefore you can eke out a small win with them.

If he's a calling station and never folds pre, then you make what is ordinarily a mistake and stop raising as much; you limp with some borderline "default raise" hands with no high card strength like 53s and 76o and J4s because you don't have fold equity.