Post-Flop Skills: Method for Improvement

[ymu]

[ QUOTE ]
I understand that ICM demonstrates that each chip lost is worth more than each chip one, but aren't you losing a ton of chips to the blinds by folding almost every hand? Let's say you fold the majority of hands with the idea that you want to make it to the bubble. By that time, you are down half of your stack and playing against opponents with stacks that are 3 or 4 times as big as yours. Now, even if you start applying ICM correctly, the big stacks will gladly call your pushes with a rather loose range trying to bust you out. Now there is a good chance you will get busted out, because you are forced to push marginal hands now that you are well under 10xBB.

This whole idea of waiting for the bubble (and losing a lot of chips to the blinds) never made sense to me, because the bubble almost always seems to be dominated by the big stacks, regardless of whether you turn on push/fold mode all of a sudden or not.

Honestly, I do much better in SNGs when I double up early on compared to when I don't. I understand that you don't double your equity, but you have a big advantage come bubble time if you are playing with a 2500 chip stack vs. someone playing with an 850 chip stack.

Thoughts on this??

[/ QUOTE ]
It would be surprising if you didn't tend to get a better outcome when you doubled early on rather than not doubling early on. This doesn't mean you should take a high risk of going broke trying to double up.

The average stack is rarely very deep compared to the size of the blinds in SnGs, so a few blind steals can turn around a shortstack very quickly - especially if you start pushing while you still have FE instead of donking off you chips and going into push/fold mode in level 1/2.

[DeuceSeven]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ICM demonstrates that in a tournament (that isn't winner take all) each chip won is worth less than each chip lost. If you have a 10% expected ROI when a tournament begins and you double up, you're expected ROI doesn't go to 20%, it goes to 18%.

If you want to outplay people postflop, I recommend playing cash games where you can top off if you lose a pot, or MTTs where the payout structure is much steeper and thus accumulating chips has more value.


[/ QUOTE ]

I understand that ICM demonstrates that each chip lost is worth more than each chip one, but aren't you losing a ton of chips to the blinds by folding almost every hand? Let's say you fold the majority of hands with the idea that you want to make it to the bubble. By that time, you are down half of your stack and playing against opponents with stacks that are 3 or 4 times as big as yours. Now, even if you start applying ICM correctly, the big stacks will gladly call your pushes with a rather loose range trying to bust you out. Now there is a good chance you will get busted out, because you are forced to push marginal hands now that you are well under 10xBB.

This whole idea of waiting for the bubble (and losing a lot of chips to the blinds) never made sense to me, because the bubble almost always seems to be dominated by the big stacks, regardless of whether you turn on push/fold mode all of a sudden or not.

Honestly, I do much better in SNGs when I double up early on compared to when I don't. I understand that you don't double your equity, but you have a big advantage come bubble time if you are playing with a 2500 chip stack vs. someone playing with an 850 chip stack.

Thoughts on this??

[/ QUOTE ]


I normally have about my starting stack give or take 300 by the time the blinds get to 75/150. If I'm pushing tighter then my opponents loose calling range or looser then my opponents tight calling range, this might be a profitable way to play.

DUCY

[suzzer99]

Most players here, myself included, would rather start with 8 tables at 1500 chips than 4 tables at 3k chips and 4 tables immediately busto. Generally you have to win a showdown or two at crunch time to make ITM in a SNG. Obviously it's better to have more chips, but not 2x better.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

Honestly, I do much better in SNGs when I double up early on compared to when I don't. I understand that you don't double your equity, but you have a big advantage come bubble time if you are playing with a 2500 chip stack vs. someone playing with an 850 chip stack.


[/ QUOTE ]

sure, but it's not worth finding situations to do so at the cost of busting out more often as well. obviously you're going to do better if you get allin with AA against AK in level 1 than if you just folded. but that's very different than trying to "making something happen" on a whiffed AK or semibluffing for most/all of your stack with a speculative hand.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Most players here, myself included, would rather start with 8 tables at 1500 chips than 4 tables at 3k chips and 4 tables immediately busto. Generally you have to win a showdown or two at crunch time to make ITM in a SNG. Obviously it's better to have more chips, but not 2x better.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would go so far as to say I would rather have 8 tables at 1500 than 4 tables at 3500 and 4 tables immediately busto

edit: and it doesn't matter what the blinds are or whether there's 4-9 players left (obviously if you already cashed in all 4 that's different [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] )

[suzzer99]

Yeah there's some sweet spot. 5 tables at 3k would definitely work for me. curtains might want more edge, who knows.

[cleinen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ICM demonstrates that in a tournament (that isn't winner take all) each chip won is worth less than each chip lost. If you have a 10% expected ROI when a tournament begins and you double up, you're expected ROI doesn't go to 20%, it goes to 18%.

If you want to outplay people postflop, I recommend playing cash games where you can top off if you lose a pot, or MTTs where the payout structure is much steeper and thus accumulating chips has more value.


[/ QUOTE ]

I understand that ICM demonstrates that each chip lost is worth more than each chip one, but aren't you losing a ton of chips to the blinds by folding almost every hand? Let's say you fold the majority of hands with the idea that you want to make it to the bubble. By that time, you are down half of your stack and playing against opponents with stacks that are 3 or 4 times as big as yours. Now, even if you start applying ICM correctly, the big stacks will gladly call your pushes with a rather loose range trying to bust you out. Now there is a good chance you will get busted out, because you are forced to push marginal hands now that you are well under 10xBB.

This whole idea of waiting for the bubble (and losing a lot of chips to the blinds) never made sense to me, because the bubble almost always seems to be dominated by the big stacks, regardless of whether you turn on push/fold mode all of a sudden or not.

Honestly, I do much better in SNGs when I double up early on compared to when I don't. I understand that you don't double your equity, but you have a big advantage come bubble time if you are playing with a 2500 chip stack vs. someone playing with an 850 chip stack.

Thoughts on this??

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding every hand in levels I & II isn't really going to short stack you. However playing raised pots in these levels can. As you move into the mid levels there may be some spots to try and steal to maintain a stack because by this time you should have some type of indictator as to how people are playing. I am not saying you have rock solid reads but you can draw general ideas.

[durron597]

also usually once the blinds get to, say, 50/100 you can usually pick up a blind or two if it's the first time you've raised in 20 minutes

[cwar]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, the idea of playing HU sngs to improve your postflop play is ridiculous, because the hand ranges in a HU sng are completely unrelated to the hand ranges at a full table. In a HU SnG in level 1, it's reasonable to raise K4o on the button, you opponent calls, the flop comes J74 and your opponent checks. Bet or check behind? This situation will *never* come up in level 1 in a SnG, and I will be VERY surprised if you are advocating open-raising K4o on the button level 1 in a full SnG.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hi guys Im a HU sng regular up to the $220s, theres a lot of stuff in here that I disagree with. First off hand ranges in HU sng really do apply just because their preflop range is wider doesnt mean that you cannot apply your postflop reading skills to a context where their range is smaller, in fact the situation where the preflop range is smaller it is much easier to read someones hand postflop if their preflop range is small and/or well definined.
[ QUOTE ]
ICM demonstrates that in a tournament (that isn't winner take all) each chip won is worth less than each chip lost. If you have a 10% expected ROI when a tournament begins and you double up, you're expected ROI doesn't go to 20%, it goes to 18%.

[/ QUOTE ]
Im just inferring here but it sounds like Collin is right, many of you may be passing up a lot of +EV spots early even at 80% value (and that seems extreme to me) you can afford to open a wide range from the button and CO. Also Id like to note that your double up example seemed a bit off to me, yes the value of doubling up may be 80% but mostly raising from the button is pretty small ball stuff so the value of the initial chips you win would have more value than doubling up, like 95% value maybe (purely an example).
[ QUOTE ]
we call a raise to 120 at 20/40 with 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on the button.
The bottom line is that there is no room in SnGs to try to "outplay postflop" early and try to build a stack. What if the flop had come A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. The original raiser bets and we do what. Raise?

[/ QUOTE ]
Obvious raise, your crushing his range Im not sure why you are so worried about worst case scenarios (you didnt give positions lets assume its not UTG) it seems like your thinking is pretty skewed here, why are you worried about flipping with AK-AJ when thats the upper part of his range? Think about the whole hand range and you are way ahead. I think a lot of your arguments actually kind of prove Collin's point that a lot of STT'ers may have some major leaks in their postflop game.
[ QUOTE ]
In a HU SnG in level 1, it's reasonable to raise K4o on the button, you opponent calls, the flop comes J74 and your opponent checks. Bet or check behind?

[/ QUOTE ]
K4o is the lower part of my opening range but I think this example proves perfectly why playing HU sngs will help your postflop play, this is a perfect example of understand what factors affect your cbet, the actual hand and villain have no relevance besides the fact that you want to understand what to consider. Your thinking about specific knowledge (what specific hands to raise fromt he button) where as I think Collin is thinking about applying it on a broad level (like when is a hand as weak as K4o or 32o worth a button raise or what factors to consider when your making a decision to cbet), if you say you never raise 32o or K4o OTB in level 1 you either have a leak in your game or your thinking. Of course you will still be profitable but Collin is talking about maximizing expectation not cookie-cutter strategies.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
we call a raise to 120 at 20/40 with 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on the button.
The bottom line is that there is no room in SnGs to try to "outplay postflop" early and try to build a stack. What if the flop had come A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. The original raiser bets and we do what. Raise?

[/ QUOTE ]
Obvious raise, your crushing his range Im not sure why you are so worried about worst case scenarios (you didnt give positions lets assume its not UTG) it seems like your thinking is pretty skewed here, why are you worried about flipping with AK-AJ when thats the upper part of his range? Think about the whole hand range and you are way ahead. I think a lot of your arguments actually kind of prove Collin's point that a lot of STT'ers may have some major leaks in their postflop game.

[/ QUOTE ]

it's an obvious raise in a cash game, but that was my point, it's not a cash game, it's an STT, and you're not nearly as far ahead of his range as you think you are... plus that is like the best possible flop where you don't flop the nuts or near nuts, and most of the time the flop will be much worse like my AJ3 example.