Shortstack strategy?

[phydaux]

Getting Started in Hold'em - that's where Ed first outlined the basics of the Short Stack Strategy

No Limit Hold'em: Theory & Practice - in this book Ed & Dave, among many other things, explore all the advantages there are to playing a short stack.




Geez, when the guys in the FR forum see all this, they're gonna kill me...

[gobby888]

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Gobby,

You're right that the SSS doesn't really defend or try to steal the blinds much. That's poker. SSS isn't poker. It's a differant game called "Shove."

Try the SSS on a FR table. On a 6-max table the blinds come around too quickly and can really eat up your tiny stack. FR gives you a few extra hands per orbit to hit a few face cards and make a play.

As far as folding to c-bets when you miss the flop, remember that most players miss most flops. The SSS player will miss most of his flops, but so will his opponent. So you're not suppose to fold to an opponent's c-bet. He's suppose to fold to your re-raise all-in.

Yes, you will lose a few buy-ins here and there. But you will also double through now and then. And more likely, you will win several small pots and accrue a mid-size stack. Then you cash out and find a differant table.

Remember: The SSS is all about denying your opponent correct implied odds to call Once your stack gets over 50BB it begins to be correct for your opponent to call you based on implied odds alone. Once your stack gets big enough, cash out and find a differant table.

Yes, the SSS is boring. Like I said before, it isn't really even poker. But it is a mathmatically corect, nearly unexploitable, +EV NL strategy where a relativly unskilled player can multi-table lots of tables and grind out a consistant profit.

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Excellent advice, phydaux. I'll be giving FR a go instead of 6-max whilst I'm playing this style. I see it as a short term goal to make sure I'm playing tight aggressive, at least on the first 2 rounds.

[dynacraze]

i use to do this method but it didn't work out well. I then started to have a middle stack strategy with 50BB's or so. The only way for this strategy and your SSS strategy to work is if you leave once you double up.

Would anyone here say middlestacking is dumb because a lot of people say thats like the worst thing you can do at 50BB. They say either buy in full or shortstack but never middle stack because you get the worst of it.

The only problems i have with middlestacking is say if theres a raiser and i have a hand like 22-99 b/c if its tough for me to call b/c i know i lose out if i hit a set and only can stack the other player for only 40BB etc b/c i started around 50BB or so. The other problem is that i will hit a set and they fold OR they bet and i fold b/c of 3 high cards.

The positive thing about this strategy is that you can't get stacked for 100BBs with your AA/KK on a 7 5 2 board to someones set. You basically lose only 1/2 a buyin. Same as with AK on a A 7 3 board because you give them less implied odds eventhough they may get you with a set though it isn't your full buyin. The other positive thing is that if they don't have a set, you usually go all in on the turn and they are either drawing to 2 outs or 5 outs and call b/c they see you as having very little left.

Anyone use this middle stack strategy? I tried to do it and it seemed better than the SSS but it has cons like the 2 i just mentioned. Another poster said they do the same thing with 50BBs and would like to know if anyone else plays this way.

[gobby888]

I just read this:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rue#Post7964709

Its my 2nd night of SSS, and tbh it sucks. I'm not enjoying the game and feel I'm learning almost nothing so I might just go back to my normal 6-max NL25 game.

Although theres less variance, no all-in's with full stacks, I'm dripping money slowly - almost to the point where it's becoming automatic for me to reload to $5. Its definitely not Poker

I don't know if its just Party, but at most of my tables tonight I saw half of the players (all German players) playing the same Short Stack strategy with $5 buyins at NL25. Does this happen at FT or any of the other poker sites?

[img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

[phydaux]

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The only way for this strategy and your SSS strategy to work is if you leave once you double up.

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Ding Ding Ding !!! Now you're gettin' it.

SSS has been called "strategic ratholing." Buy in for 20-25 BB, and when your stack gets to ~40-50 BB you type "Meep! Meep! Roadrunner!" in the chat window and you split.

Remember, poker is all about the battle of mistakes. Playing the SSS works because, unless the other guy has AA or KK, it's usually a mistake for him to call your bet.

All this is contingent on the SSS player being willing to shove on the flop. SSS isn't poker. It's "Shove." If the SSS player starts playing Hit-to-Win, then he isn't playing Shove anymore, he's playing poker. Badly. And he's gonna lose his chips, because he's gonna miss most flops. But so is his opponent! And most of the time the opponent will be getting incorrect pot odds to go along with zero implied odds and the correct poker move will be for the opponent to fold.

This is why "poker players" hate Short Stacker! They know the only correct play against a short stacker is to either have AA & KK pre-flop, or to fold. And they know that as soon as the short stacker steals enough small pots that he gets to 45 or 50 BB the he's gonna take the money and run.

Middle Stacking really is the worst of both worlds. If you have a 50BB stack and you raise pre-flop with KK, you are just offering correct implied odds for a guy to call with 77. So your pre-flop raises will get called (correctly) much more often. And if the flop happens to come K 7 2, then you're not getting full value because you can only win half the other guy's stack.

Middle Stacking is actually real poker, and if you're going to play poker then you're going to want to buy in for the max. But only if you feel you have a skill advantage over the other players. If you don't feel you have a skill advantage, then you either need to drop down or play the short stack.

(The guys in the FR forum are gonna nail me to a cross. They hate short stackers...)

[phydaux]

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I just read this:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rue#Post7964709



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pokey's an awesome poster. He was a big help to me back before the FR forum split off from all the action junkies playing 6-max. The guy really knows his stuff, and is willing to share with noobs. That's a rare combination.

I totally agree with this line from his post:

"Short-stack strategy stunts your growth as a poker player"

This is because the SSS isn't poker. So you're not really learning anything while you're playing. And it's boring, but it also allows a relatively unskilled player to play 10 tables at a time and grind out a consistent profit. But that short stacker could play 10 tables of 100NL for a year and he will remain an unskilled player.

And that's why I ultimately decided not to short stack when I make the switch from limit to NL. I started at the lowest level I could, bought in for 100BB and played poker. Badly at first, but I got better. Mostly thanks to guys like pokey.

I'd never tell someone not to short stack. I see players short stacking all the time on line. Usually badly, because they're afraid to shove on the flop. So if you're gonna do it, then do it right. But yeah, you're probably better off just learning to play poker.

[dynacraze]

hey phydaux, yes i sort of did knew that you had to hit and run for SSS or middle stacking to work.

Someone i noted also middlestacked b/c he gave me the same reasons i had thought of in my head. They won't lose much in one hand whereas they won't get full value in another.

For instance when i played with a 50BB stack, i usually get down to say 42BB or so and pick up Aces and raise and get a caller. Most of the time i bet 3/4 of pot and when i get called. Turn i shove almost everytime unless its a scary card like 3 to a flush and i don't have the Ace of that.

But most of the time they just fold on my flop bet. A small percent of the time they hit their set.

I have another quesition because you know this stuff really well.

Is it really a bad play for them call a 4X BB raise with a hand like 77 when i start with 40BB to start the hand with? The reason I am asking this is because when i starting playing full stacks of 100BB and saw people with short stacks say 25BB or less raising 3.5x to 4x the BB, I fold my pocket pair almost everytime assuming I think its only ggoing to be heads up on the flop.

When i see people raising 3.5X to 4X the BB with say 45BBs to start the hand with, i sometimes actually fold my pocket pair because i don't see my implied odds as that great since a majority of the time i will miss my set OR my opponent won't pay me off b/c he has AK or AQ or KK and an Ace flops while i hit a set.

I read in a thread that its only profitable to call a raise with your pocket pair if you can make at least 11.7x the amount you call the raise. So if my opponent has 22 dollars in a hand to start with and raised to 2 dollars PF in a 50NL game, I can't really call his flop bet because i need him to have at least 23 dollars for me to make this call profitable.

Any insights on this?

[gobby888]

Hit and running when doubling up is tiresome....its a right pain in the **** to find a near full table, especially on Party. And with so many already doing this SSS, should I just play somewhere else?

[pzhon]

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SSS has been called "strategic ratholing."

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It's been called much worse. It's highly unfashionable, and not well understood. This does not mean it is unprofitable, or an impediment to learning. In fact, the consensus of some past discussions has been that playing with a short stack can be good for learning.

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Buy in for 20-25 BB, and when your stack gets to ~40-50 BB you type "Meep! Meep! Roadrunner!" in the chat window and you split.


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No. You don't have to leave. You have to change your strategy if you still want it to be profitable. It is very important to recognize that proper strategy in NL depends on the effective stack size.

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SSS isn't poker. It's "Shove."


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It's a restricted part of poker, one your cash game opponents are not prepared to play properly. Almost all tournaments give you a relatively short stack most of the time. While you may start with a stack of 75 BB, in a few levels the average stack size is going to be 15-20 BB. Tournament poker is real poker.

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Middle Stacking really is the worst of both worlds. If you have a 50BB stack and you raise pre-flop with KK, you are just offering correct implied odds for a guy to call with 77.

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No, you aren't, but many players think you are and will incorrectly call. Playing for set value alone promotes the other hands you play into AA, which is very profitable for you.


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And if the flop happens to come K 7 2, then you're not getting full value because you can only win half the other guy's stack.


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Instead of dreaming about rare set-over-set situations (while ignoring the times you lose with big second-best hands) where you can take 200 BB off of someone, you are supposed to concentrate on picking up the much more common smaller pots. That is real poker.

[davebwell]

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Wait, shove on the flop no matter what?

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I would use common sense before shoving in on the flop. If you bet the pot preflop from middle position with JJ and 4 players call and the flop comes AQx, I would fold and add more chips to my stack.