Shortstack strategy?

[foal]

When I normally play poker I like to really concentrate on my games -- no TV on, no people talking to me. Having been LANing with a couple friends in an environment with various distractions for the last few days, I came up with mindless strategy to try.
I brought up 12 2NL FR tables for a buyin of 1 dollar (my normal game right now is 10NL 6-max). I didn't play any hand except for JJ-AA, AK and AQ, and every hand I played I pushed all in preflop. Its seemed profitable, not because its sound, but because people call often enough with hands like KT, 55, or A3.
I tried this at 10NL FR with a 2 dollar buy in, but felt I was getting blinded out faster than I was profiting from all ins. I realized this was because the pots I was winning were only half as big in terms of BBs and the blinds I was posting were twice as big. I could try buying in for 4 dollars, but I have a feeling players will be a lot more selective about calling 4 dollar all-ins than 1 dollar all-ins.
Any thoughts/advice? I'd love to hear a better shortstack system, especially one that will work at higher levels. I know Ed Miller describes one in GSOHE, but I have not read this book. This isn't the way I intend to play the game normally, nor do I find it anywhere near as enjoyable as typical play, however there are times when I feel I'd like to just plug away mindlessly for awhile whether its because I'm mentally drained or am in a distracting environment.
I suppose a better alternative might just be to play a few FR tables. I play FR tight anyway and don't need near as much concentration as 6-max..

[phydaux]

Slight adjustments:

Pre-flop raise 4x-6x BB

Shove on the flop

Pots will be bigger and you are still denying opponents proper implied odds to call with speculative hands like SCs, Axs and small PPs.

Get GSIH because that's where Ed first outlines the SSS, but also get NLH:T&P because Ed and Dave go over it in detail there. Also see Ed's web site.

You can multi-table the SSS as high as your BR allows. But always remember that the other players will hate you.

[foal]

Wait, shove on the flop no matter what?

[foal]

Would you use the same hand range I described?

[phydaux]

[ QUOTE ]
Wait, shove on the flop no matter what?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're currently shoving pre-flop no matter what, aren't you? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

It all comes down to hand ranges. Guys who buy in deep, they're playing to stack the other deep stacks at the table. Sure they play the premium pairs aggressivly, but those hands only come around every so often. Most of the time these guys are getting into pots with suited connectors, suited aces or small pairs. They're trying to flop either a monster made hand or a monster draw so they can take another guy's whole stack.

But the short stacker isn't playing that way. You're stealing the blinds and sometimes stealing pots on the flop. You're not looking for a straight or a flush or a set, you're just looking for top pair. Or a hand that might become top pair, or that might already be a bigger pair than the one your opponent has.

Say you're at a FR table UTG and you have a stack of 25BB You get dealt AQ. You raise 5x BB and you get one caller, the Button, who has a stack of 100BB.

Right away, you have forced the Button to make a mistake.

What kind of hand could a Button caller have? Honestly, he could have any two cards - any pair, any suited connectors, any suited ace, any suited face cards or any ace-face. And if he's loose at all, his probable range gets crazy - Any two suited, any two connectors, any two face cards. But it's really not that crazy, because a skilled & aggressive player can play hands like that profitably when he has position.

Provided both he and the initial raisor are deep stacked.

Say the button has a hand like 77. Pocket sevens really aren't that much of a hand. But one time in 9, small pocket pairs will make a set, and a set can often win an opponents stack, or most of it. But usually you don't make a set, and pocket sevens have to get mucked.

So 8 times it will cost the Button 5BB to see a flop, he won't get help and he'll have to muck, costing him 40BB total. The nineth time he will make a set and win his opponent's stack, or most of it.

But after your flop bet your stack is only 20 BB! So over time it's costing the Button 40BB for a chance of winning 20BB. It was a mistake for him to call your raise.

But he did. Say the flop comes J 8 5. You're first to act and you shove. Well, Poker Stove tells us that you're in deep kimchi. Any pocket pair vs two overcards, after the flop, is a 7:3 dog. The good news is that you're not playing with the cards face up. All the button knows is that he has a weak pair and he's looking as a big overbet from the pre-flop raiser. Same if he were playing a hand like 87s. He knows you could have easily raised pre-flop with JJ, or AJ or even QJ. He can't call.

And if he were playing 65s and had flopped an OESD, he's only getting 3:2 pot odds to see two cards and his odds of making a straight are a little over 2:1. And he has zero implied odds. He can't call.

Even if he did call, you've got 6 outs twice to suck out.

Those are the times the profanity filter works overtime. But you don't care, 'cause you took your double through and move to a differant table where you can buy in short again.

And that is why most players HATE short stackers.

[foal]

I appreciate the thorough response. It's got my mind working. I may just head over to the bookstore and flip through GSIHE and NLHTP. So far I've found short stacking to be annoying and not much fun, but it is at least amusing. What I find fun is trying to devise an almost mindless +EV system and analyzing my simplistic results. As a psychology student, I do love to analyze me some sample data.

[gobby888]

Hi foal,

I bought Ed Miller's GSIHE and read it on holiday...the short stack strategy seem's quite interesting, in that you're only playing 2 rounds - pre-flop and the flop (where you either shove or check/fold). I tried this for a couple of hours tonight, NL25 6-handed...I played extra tight as Ed suggests in his books, but always folded the blinds to raises and didn't steal. From first impressions, I think I'm playing this weak-tight as I'm also folding to continuation bets should I miss the flop (no bluffs).

[gobby888]

[ QUOTE ]
I appreciate the thorough response. It's got my mind working. I may just head over to the bookstore and flip through GSIHE and NLHTP. So far I've found short stacking to be annoying and not much fun, but it is at least amusing. What I find fun is trying to devise an almost mindless +EV system and analyzing my simplistic results. As a psychology student, I do love to analyze me some sample data.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea - its not much fun, so I 4 tabled it (I usually 2-3 table). Felt like I was climbing a sand dune tbh...

[phydaux]

[ QUOTE ]
I bought Ed Miller's GSIHE and read it on holiday... the short stack strategy seem's quite interesting, in that you're only playing 2 rounds - pre-flop and the flop... I tried this for a couple of hours tonight, NL25 6-handed... always folded the blinds to raises and didn't steal... I'm also folding to continuation bets should I miss the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Gobby,

You're right that the SSS doesn't really defend or try to steal the blinds much. That's poker. SSS isn't poker. It's a differant game called "Shove."

Try the SSS on a FR table. On a 6-max table the blinds come around too quickly and can really eat up your tiny stack. FR gives you a few extra hands per orbit to hit a few face cards and make a play.

As far as folding to c-bets when you miss the flop, remember that most players miss most flops. The SSS player will miss most of his flops, but so will his opponent. So you're not suppose to fold to an opponent's c-bet. He's suppose to fold to your re-raise all-in.

Yes, you will lose a few buy-ins here and there. But you will also double through now and then. And more likely, you will win several small pots and accrue a mid-size stack. Then you cash out and find a differant table.

Remember: The SSS is all about denying your opponent correct implied odds to call Once your stack gets over 50BB it begins to be correct for your opponent to call you based on implied odds alone. Once your stack gets big enough, cash out and find a differant table.

Yes, the SSS is boring. Like I said before, it isn't really even poker. But it is a mathmatically corect, nearly unexploitable, +EV NL strategy where a relativly unskilled player can multi-table lots of tables and grind out a consistant profit.

[ahsfl]

OK I know I'm going to sound completely moronic but could u possibly give me the full names of the 2 books u are refering to. This whole concept while like you said doesn't sound very fun at all but I'm a stats major so concepts like this are pretty interesting to me.