How is my Line, TPTK FD?

Ryfe Ender · #1 01-22-2007, 09:30 PM

Not too much info on the Villian, but been playing about 40% VPIP since I got to the table.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP2 ($93.40)
CO ($74)
Button ($175.30)
SB ($100.50)
BB ($83.20)
UTG ($129.35)
UTG+1 ($105.25)
Hero ($100)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $1, Hero calls $1, 3 folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($4) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 bets $1, Hero raises to $5, SB calls $5, BB folds, UTG+1 raises to $15, Hero raises to $45, SB folds, UTG+1 raises to $118.25, Hero calls $54 (All-In).

jk3a · #2 01-22-2007, 09:33 PM

looks good although you probably got it in against a set or 67. I would generally call his $15 dollar bet here, but getting it all-in is certainly ok.

Ryfe Ender · #3 01-22-2007, 09:36 PM

Ok, so getting it AI is ok.

So after you make the 15 call, what happens if you miss on the turn and he fires? fold I assume yeah?

Etric · #4 01-23-2007, 02:40 AM

I don't like getting it all in on this flop without a read. This would be good against an overpair, but without a read that villain will go to the felt with any overpair I would not like to get all my money in against a likely set.

Against an overpair, we are ahead 57.7% to 42.3%
Against a set we are behind 38.4% to 61.6%.

Are we up against a non-set half the time? I don't know, but I don't think so.

I would either raise to $4 or just call the $1.

Usually I find that these people have some draw when they underbet the pot like that, and we are getting the right odds to draw to the flush, without even taking the implied odds into account.

If the flush gets there and he has a flush draw, he is getting stacked. If he has a straight, we will just have to hope that our flush comes in and he'll call out bet if it hits; however it is unlikely he called in EP with 76; he might possibly have A2s.

If he has a set, he is probably losing a lot of money, plus we have 3 additional outs vs a set (the deuces). If he has an overpair like 88 we have trips/2pair outs as well; plus he might give us a free card on the turn if an overcard falls. If he is just bluffing with some overcards, he might continue to bluff on the turn.

If I raised on the flop, I would likely semibluff on the turn as well, assuming it was checked to me.

ImsaKidd · #5 01-23-2007, 02:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, so getting it AI is ok.

So after you make the 15 call, what happens if you miss on the turn and he fires? fold I assume yeah?

[/ QUOTE ]

Against this guy, I think a call is fine. He has shown that he can underbet pots. So you have an extra shot to hit your outs if he gives you pot odds.

If you're gonna get AI, I shove over the 15.

Cry Me A River · #6 01-23-2007, 02:53 AM

Know what? I like calling the $1 flop bet. With so many players in the hand, you avoid folding out TJ[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. If you hit your flush, you're going to stack weaker flushes an awfull lot. You're also going to hose sets/straights pretty good as well 'cuz these guys don't fold big hands so well. And if an overcard [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] hits, you may stack TP hands too.

And if you don't hit, you get away from the hand cheaply. By just calling you get most of the upside of getting it all-in on the flop and little of the downside.

Heads-up I'd be more inclined to reraise the flop, but multiway I'd like to keep as many potential customers as possible particularly if you have reads other players are loose, calling stations.

Jurrr · #7 01-23-2007, 05:15 AM

Calling $1 or raising to $5 are both alright. I would hopefully call the $15 bet as I think the combination of small-bet/reraise is a set or straight and I don't think you have the pot odds to push.

jetsetboy · #8 01-23-2007, 10:06 AM

IMO just calling the $1 flop is a mistake not because it's EV- but because raising has more value.

We have a FD, TPTK (hum), a GS, 3 other players. By raising this weak bet we achieve 3 things :
_ We define the hands of the 3 vilains, any pair might feel he is good here, the $1 bet means nothing at this point, I like to know how much vilains like their hand, because when I hit I want to be able to bet as much as they can reasonably call.
_ We build the pot. If we hit our flush we will know for sure that we have the best hand so we will want to play a huge pot. If we call the 1$ bet, the pot will be $8 on turn if SB and BB both call. With a possible flush on the board we will not be able to stack somebody if nobody has a good flush (J high +). How do you react on this board with a set if a donk weak lead the flop, a good player just call, the turn is a spade and the good player goes crazy ? You just call if you have the odds for a fh and don't call a strong bet on the river ui. If he raised on the flop you will be more inclined to call. Don't be too result oriented, if we get 3betted that's not a big deal as the pot will still be of a reasonable size on the turn (except if we got 3betted to something like $25 and SB and BB both calls but then we would have direct pot odds for our call of the 3bet).
_ By calling we just put money in, offering terrific odds to SB and BB (who can call with 2 overs). By raising we don't allow them to stay for free. Nobody will ever fold a fd here (because it's likely that UTG will call/raise the bet given that he is a fish) so the one type of hand we want to keep we us will stay. We might make fold 77-99 which is actually a very good thing and two high cards will surely fold. This is a good thing too because if a J comes on the turn we might be in deep trouble if SB/BB leads and the two others folds.

Once we raised, SB called, UTG+1 3betted for $15 I guess a call is the best line. If SB push and UTG fold (worst case scenario) we still have the odds to call (I think, i'm not sure i haven't done the math). If SB calls too, we will have to reevalute on a blank turn depending on the size of the likely bet from UTG+1.

Don't forget that the fisrt bet and even a call of a raise from any player could be any overpair (in fact any pp as 22 gives an oesd), any two pairs, 65s, any fd. Against any of those hands which are far more likely than a set/straight we have 18 outs (any 2, any ace, any 5, any spade) !

By the way, fold this hand preflop in this position (except is the table is REALLY passive). I don't mind a raise to isolate the 40% VPIP fish if you think you will be HU more than 50% of the time or if you think you can win the pot preflop. I hate a limp, way to passive and most of the time you will be oop or you will have to fold because a mp/late player will raise.

Last but no least, quite often you raise on the flop and nobody calls, you have some FE. I think at least 33% and that's enough because you are quite happy to win the pot right here where any pp is SB/SA of you and there is 3 players in the pot.