** Official August Chat Thread: The White Swan ** - Page 93

TheProdigy · #**921** 08-08-2007, 10:13 PM

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anyone who has the book- can you explain on page 70 why the hell that AT example applys to pot control wtf?

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maybe you're thinking of pot control as "keep the pot small"?

our definition of pot control is figuring out how big you want the pot then making it that size. applies to big and little pots.

p. 68: "SOME EXCEPTIONS. When you are not committed, you should usually not bet or call a large portion of the effective stack. There are, of course, a few exceptions:"

p. 69: "#3. You might call such a bet with a draw if the pot odds or implied odds justify the call."

p. 70: with AhTh you call 30% of the effective stack with a draw with a 12-outer with several other players already calling that bet before it gets back to you.

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Man, how in the world do you find time to read this lowly thread of all things? I don't even read half the stuff in it and I'm one of the forums most active users

Matt Flynn · #**922** 08-08-2007, 10:19 PM

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Thoughts on SPR section
gogogogogogogo

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Some of mine:

SPR is about planning hands around commitment. It applies in games where commitment and getting all-in come into play fairly often, which is most 100bb games. It can help you defend against players who like to steal, and can help you steal.

SPR helps manage your effective odds from the start of a hand. What you do preflop can hurt you postflop, so plan ahead. The section covers different hand types and how they play out with different SPRs.

When practical, use SPR to set yourself up to commit if you hit with big pairs and top pair hands. It usually is not possible to do that with top pair hands when the stacks are 100bb. 100bb stacks suck for top-pair hands.

Even in 100bb stack games, you can still use SPR to figure out how best to play smaller pairs, suited connectors, etc preflop, and how to reduce the pain of playing top pair hands against aggro players. You always have some wiggle room in how you play so you should take advantage. With top pair hands, you want to play chicken well - grab the pots when no one hits the flop. But SPR is not specific to top pair hands.

Planning around SPR is only a plan. You don't make a commitment plan then blindly blunder through a hand. New information as the hand plays out can and should override your commitment decisions and your SPR planning. SPR planning is analagous to achieving the high ground prior to a battle. You still have to fight, but the playing field is tipped a bit in your favor.

You have to steal or make the best hand to win. With big pairs obv you look to make the best hand. With suited connectors and all lesser draw hands you should look to steal first. Hitting the flop should be your backup plan, not your primary goal, unless you can get in very cheap and get people to pay you off.

Volume 2 addresses several additional aspects. Perhaps most important, planning hands around commitment or to leverage commitment to steal are not the only ways to plan hands. Nor are they always the best ways. For example, sometimes you stand to take the blinds down so often with a raise that you should make a standard raise regardless of what SPR it sets up. You make more with the raise than you lose from having a bad SPR. Or maybe your opponents like to call your preflop raises or reraises then checkfold when they miss the pot. If so then eff SPR you have a better way to make money.

Cliff notes: SPR is valuable for planning hands but is not the whole story. Also, SPR plans are flexible.

Matt Flynn · #**923** 08-08-2007, 10:23 PM

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when will this book be in stores?

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supposedly soon, but Barnes and Noble can take a month to get books in stores.

D.L.M. · #**924** 08-08-2007, 10:56 PM

Ill try to get to spr tonight, I just took a long nap. So far Ive disagreed with a few of the blanket statements the authors have made because it really does "depend" but over all it is the most solid NL text ive seen. ive gottan to page 125 so far.

BeatPurdue · #**925** 08-09-2007, 12:16 AM

Slowplayers are saving me tonight.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

SB ($221.25)
BB ($40)
UTG ($50.60)
UTG+1 ($84.30)
MP1 ($151.40)
MP2 ($39.30)
Hero ($225.10)
CO ($199.80)
Button ($206.05)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls $2, 1 fold, Hero raises to $10, 4 folds, MP1 calls $8.

Flop: ($23) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets $17, MP1 calls $17.

Turn: ($57) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero checks.

River: ($57) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP1 bets $124.4 (All-In), Hero calls $124.40.

Final Pot: $305.80

Results:
MP1 has 2h 2c (three of a kind, twos).
Hero has Jh Qh (straight, ace high).
Outcome: Hero wins $305.80.

soah · #**926** 08-09-2007, 12:18 AM

lol what a horrible spot to overbet

TwoNitty · #**927** 08-09-2007, 12:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Slowplayers are saving me tonight.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

SB ($221.25)
BB ($40)
UTG ($50.60)
UTG+1 ($84.30)
MP1 ($151.40)
MP2 ($39.30)
Hero ($225.10)
CO ($199.80)
Button ($206.05)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls $2, 1 fold, Hero raises to $10, 4 folds, MP1 calls $8.

Flop: ($23) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets $17, MP1 calls $17.

Turn: ($57) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero checks.

River: ($57) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP1 bets $124.4 (All-In), Hero calls $124.40.

Final Pot: $305.80

Results:
MP1 has 2h 2c (three of a kind, twos).
Hero has Jh Qh (straight, ace high).
Outcome: Hero wins $305.80.

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genius. What do you call with that you wouldnt have bet on the turn?

chicken10der · #**928** 08-09-2007, 12:24 AM

QJ

zyrrth · #**929** 08-09-2007, 12:37 AM

Is there any noticeable difference between 9 max and 10 max?

TwoNitty · #**930** 08-09-2007, 12:38 AM

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Is there any noticeable difference between 9 max and 10 max?

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there is one less player at the table.