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#81
11-08-2007, 09:33 PM
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Re: Chomsky on Anarchism (sidenote; education)
tame,
[ QUOTE ] But anyway, you don't think it would work at all and I don't think it would work for a group of more than say 30-40 people max. So I don't think we disagree much here. [/ QUOTE ] And yet it has worked reasonably well for 50 years in a corporation with up to 75,000 employees: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondrag...ve_Corporation 
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#82
11-08-2007, 10:38 PM
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Re: Chomsky on Anarchism (sidenote; education)
[ QUOTE ]
tame, [ QUOTE ] But anyway, you don't think it would work at all and I don't think it would work for a group of more than say 30-40 people max. So I don't think we disagree much here. [/ QUOTE ] And yet it has worked reasonably well for 50 years in a corporation with up to 75,000 employees: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondrag...ve_Corporation [/ QUOTE ] In no way is a company that receives special tax incentives an example of AC.
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#83
11-09-2007, 03:58 AM
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Re: Chomsky on Anarchism (sidenote; education)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] tame, [ QUOTE ] But anyway, you don't think it would work at all and I don't think it would work for a group of more than say 30-40 people max. So I don't think we disagree much here. [/ QUOTE ] And yet it has worked reasonably well for 50 years in a corporation with up to 75,000 employees: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondrag...ve_Corporation [/ QUOTE ] In no way is a company that receives special tax incentives an example of AC. [/ QUOTE ] This isn't about AC.
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#84
11-09-2007, 04:07 AM
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Re: Chomsky on Anarchism (sidenote; education)
[ QUOTE ]
tame, [ QUOTE ] But anyway, you don't think it would work at all and I don't think it would work for a group of more than say 30-40 people max. So I don't think we disagree much here. [/ QUOTE ] And yet it has worked reasonably well for 50 years in a corporation with up to 75,000 employees: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondrag...ve_Corporation [/ QUOTE ] Very interesting article. I'll def keep it in mind. My estimate was way off. It is very interesting that this cooperative was founded before Spain became a democracy, but ofcourse in the Basque province. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Nice, anarcho-syndicalism as a corporate structure - and working. Also interesting to see how heavily they are running on democratic process.
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#85
11-09-2007, 01:16 PM
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Re: Chomsky on Anarchism (sidenote; education)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] My question was poorly worded. I didn't mean to imply that ACists believed that there would be no coercion, but merely that their "system" of property rights was somehow devoid of implicit "coercion". And yes, I believe that to be the case. I ask a question to understand how I might be mistaken. [/ QUOTE ] I think that there isnt really an objective reason why we should have property rights, but what would you put in its place. I cant think if any other system of property that is theoretically consistant. If no property rights then what? [/ QUOTE ] It's not a question of "if not property rights then what". It's a matter of doing exactly Chomsky (and guys like Foucalt, etc) have said, which is that you look at any instance of force and ask if it is what you want. What bothers me is when property rights are put on a pedestal as if they are the only reasonable sorts of rights, or as if that is the one area where one may essentially force his or her own morality upon others.
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#86
11-09-2007, 06:53 PM
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Re: Chomsky on Anarchism (sidenote; education)
[ QUOTE ]
It's not a question of "if not property rights then what". It's a matter of doing exactly Chomsky (and guys like Foucalt, etc) have said, which is that you look at any instance of force and ask if it is what you want. [/ QUOTE ] Could you be a little more specific? I mean theres lots of enforcement of property rights that I could easily say I dont want but its not acceptable for me to declare someones property rights illegitimate just because I want their property. [ QUOTE ] What bothers me is when property rights are put on a pedestal as if they are the only reasonable sorts of rights, or as if that is the one area where one may essentially force his or her own morality upon others. [/ QUOTE ] Thats fine, but what else is there? Saying that property rights somehow force a morality on people is pretty unrealistic since the majority of people want property rights. The only time people start to get relative about property rights is when they want a piece of someone elses action.
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#87
11-09-2007, 07:02 PM
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Re: Chomsky on Anarchism (sidenote; education)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] tame, [ QUOTE ] But anyway, you don't think it would work at all and I don't think it would work for a group of more than say 30-40 people max. So I don't think we disagree much here. [/ QUOTE ] And yet it has worked reasonably well for 50 years in a corporation with up to 75,000 employees: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondrag...ve_Corporation [/ QUOTE ] In no way is a company that receives special tax incentives an example of AC. [/ QUOTE ] This isn't about AC. [/ QUOTE ] Fine, it isnt an example of Anarcho-anything
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#88
11-09-2007, 07:54 PM
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Re: Chomsky on Anarchism (sidenote; education)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] It's not a question of "if not property rights then what". It's a matter of doing exactly Chomsky (and guys like Foucalt, etc) have said, which is that you look at any instance of force and ask if it is what you want. [/ QUOTE ] Could you be a little more specific? I mean theres lots of enforcement of property rights that I could easily say I dont want but its not acceptable for me to declare someones property rights illegitimate just because I want their property. [/ QUOTE ] I'm not sure in what way you want me to get more specific, as I was just making a general observation. I don't necessarily believe that property rights are more or less legitimate depending on how they are enforced. It's more that I believe property rights are not the only sort of rights, and that other rights can supersede them. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] What bothers me is when property rights are put on a pedestal as if they are the only reasonable sorts of rights, or as if that is the one area where one may essentially force his or her own morality upon others. [/ QUOTE ] Thats fine, but what else is there? Saying that property rights somehow force a morality on people is pretty unrealistic since the majority of people want property rights. The only time people start to get relative about property rights is when they want a piece of someone elses action. [/ QUOTE ] I agree that people generally want property rights, although it's not as though this is ever really posed as having any sort of viable alternative. Property rights are deeply ingrained in us. The question is to what degree do these property rights give us total dominion of our property, under what conditions may this be taken away, and so forth. Just as people like property rights, people dislike gaping inequality, and they dislike a host of other things that might be generated under a system which only respected property rights.
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#89
11-10-2007, 12:24 AM
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Re: Chomsky on Anarchism (sidenote; education)
[ QUOTE ]
The question is to what degree do these property rights give us total dominion of our property, under what conditions may this be taken away, and so forth. [/ QUOTE ] This is what I dont get. If I dont have a right to my property what gives the government a right to my property? Just because people cant think of better ways to help poor people? The idea that we need a government to help the poor is one of most persistant myths we perpetuate as a society, to the detriment of the poor.
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#90
11-10-2007, 08:32 AM
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Re: Chomsky on Anarchism (sidenote; education)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] tame, [ QUOTE ] But anyway, you don't think it would work at all and I don't think it would work for a group of more than say 30-40 people max. So I don't think we disagree much here. [/ QUOTE ] And yet it has worked reasonably well for 50 years in a corporation with up to 75,000 employees: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondrag...ve_Corporation [/ QUOTE ] In no way is a company that receives special tax incentives an example of AC. [/ QUOTE ] This isn't about AC. [/ QUOTE ] Fine, it isnt an example of Anarcho-anything [/ QUOTE ] Sure it is. It is a valid example of anarcho-syndicalistic principle, which is a very different ideology from anarcho-capitalism.
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