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#81
10-12-2007, 10:57 AM
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Re: mandatory mental health evaluation for gun-rights supporters
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] The US has a disproportionally high number of murders per capita, almost twice that of any comparable western nation. This doesn't imply that US gun laws leads to more murders , but it does imply that they don't lead to less murders. [/ QUOTE ] Where's your control group? "Comparble western nations" aren't actually comparable since they don't have government intervention on the same scale in the form of our war on drugs (among many other things). If gun ownership among responsible citizens AND murder victims were distributed roughly uniformly, you *might* be on to something. [/ QUOTE ] Control groups in observatory statistics is funky in itself, but apart from that I was merely referring to easy to get statistics where you can see number of crimes per capita on a country-to-country basis, the sources are reputable enough - you can use interpol statistics for example. Most of these will show that the US has a very high violent crime rate and murder rate, and skyhigh murder by gun rate compared other first world nations of somewhat comparable means per capita, whereas other crime statistics are comparable or often favorably lower. More violent crime, but less/same of other forms of crime - That IS quite funky, however you twist and turn it. As for internal government intervention, I don't know how many countries you have studied, been too or lived in, but from an outside perspective the US is quite low on it. 
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#82
10-12-2007, 11:26 AM
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Re: mandatory mental health evaluation for gun-rights supporters
[ QUOTE ]
Poster A says he feels uncomfortable being near someone who wants to carry a gun. Poster B says someone carrying a gun could have potentially stopped the VT shooting - that such a shooting is ALREADY IN PROGRESS is part of the assumption of the statement. Then you jump in. Now, GIVEN that such an event is ALREADY IN PROGRESS, do you agree or disagree that an armed student could have potentially stopped it? [/ QUOTE ] Obviously I agree. The sky is blue and the pope still [censored] in the woods. [ QUOTE ] And in the context of "providing an environment in which these things don't happen," making a campus a "gun free zone" clearly does NOT prevent these things, since VT *IS* a gun free zone. [/ QUOTE ] Can I ask if you think this is a reasonable interpretation of my question? Are you just trying to win an argument here? [ QUOTE ] But since you brought it up, how results-oriented do you think your "lack of similar events in other countries" question is? Do you have any stats? http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html<br /> [/ QUOTE ] So in your link of (supposedly) every school shooting in the world, we see an overwhelming majority happen in the US. Your point was...? [ QUOTE ] In regards to the point that you were responding to, how many of these events, many of which occured outside the US, had armed citizens in the area who were *unable* to put a stop to the events? [/ QUOTE ] 5. Definitely exactly 5. [ QUOTE ] On the other hand, we *can* see how easily an armed citizen can put a stop to such mass attacks: [/ QUOTE ] We *can also* see how various other things might put a stop to such mass attacks (such as, ironically, not having them and having massive coverage of them). [ QUOTE ] http://www.boston.com/news/nation/ar..._in_tennessee/ [/ QUOTE ] Yes, why be results oriented when we have this sort... oh wait, no.
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#83
10-12-2007, 11:29 AM
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Re: mandatory mental health evaluation for gun-rights supporters
[ QUOTE ]
The US has a disproportionally high number of murders per capita, almost twice that of any comparable western nation. This doesn't imply that US gun laws leads to more murders , but it does imply that they don't lead to less murders. [/ QUOTE ] No, it doesn't imply that at all unless you can control for other variables, which is impossible.
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#84
10-12-2007, 11:32 AM
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Re: mandatory mental health evaluation for gun-rights supporters
[ QUOTE ]
We *can also* see how various other things might put a stop to such mass attacks (such as, ironically, not having them and having massive coverage of them). [/ QUOTE ] And let me guess. Gun control is a way to "ironically, not have them". most of the "worst" (they're all horrible, I'm speaking in pure #'s here) attacks have occured using illegal guns, which means they would've occured regardless of any and all gun control measures.
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#85
10-12-2007, 11:34 AM
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Re: mandatory mental health evaluation for gun-rights supporters
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] We *can also* see how various other things might put a stop to such mass attacks (such as, ironically, not having them and having massive coverage of them). [/ QUOTE ] And let me guess. Gun control is a way to "ironically, not have them". most of the "worst" (they're all horrible, I'm speaking in pure #'s here) attacks have occured using illegal guns, which means they would've occured regardless of any and all gun control measures. [/ QUOTE ] Gun control at what level? Cultural? Legal? Latter... not gonna help as much is it?
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#86
10-12-2007, 11:39 AM
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Re: mandatory mental health evaluation for gun-rights supporters
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] We *can also* see how various other things might put a stop to such mass attacks (such as, ironically, not having them and having massive coverage of them). [/ QUOTE ] And let me guess. Gun control is a way to "ironically, not have them". most of the "worst" (they're all horrible, I'm speaking in pure #'s here) attacks have occured using illegal guns, which means they would've occured regardless of any and all gun control measures. [/ QUOTE ] Gun control at what level? Cultural? Legal? Latter... not gonna help as much is it? [/ QUOTE ] I know many people in this modern world believe the world came into existance on their birth and will explode upon their death, but the fact of the matter is, people were killing people for millions of years, prior to the first firearms, and if you could somehow, magically, remove 100% of the firearms on this planet tonight at midnight, people would find other ways to kill each other.
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#87
10-12-2007, 11:41 AM
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Re: mandatory mental health evaluation for gun-rights supporters
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] The US has a disproportionally high number of murders per capita, almost twice that of any comparable western nation. This doesn't imply that US gun laws leads to more murders , but it does imply that they don't lead to less murders. [/ QUOTE ] No, it doesn't imply that at all unless you can control for other variables, which is impossible. [/ QUOTE ] Ding, exactly. This may be the first recorded case where I have agreed with xorbie.
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#88
10-12-2007, 11:42 AM
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Re: mandatory mental health evaluation for gun-rights supporters
No way. I adamantly refuse to believe that without guns anyone would ever die, ever. It is a proven fact that cancer, AIDS and radical Islam would all disappear should stricter gun controls be enacted.
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#89
10-12-2007, 11:42 AM
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Re: mandatory mental health evaluation for gun-rights supporters
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] The US has a disproportionally high number of murders per capita, almost twice that of any comparable western nation. This doesn't imply that US gun laws leads to more murders , but it does imply that they don't lead to less murders. [/ QUOTE ] No, it doesn't imply that at all unless you can control for other variables, which is impossible. [/ QUOTE ] Ding, exactly. This may be the first recorded case where I have agreed with xorbie. [/ QUOTE ] Pop the chamagna man, it's time to party.
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#90
10-12-2007, 11:46 AM
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Re: mandatory mental health evaluation for gun-rights supporters
[ QUOTE ]
The US has a disproportionally high number of murders per capita, almost twice that of any comparable western nation. This doesn't imply that US gun laws leads to more murders , but it does imply that they don't lead to less murders. [/ QUOTE ] if you compare violent crime in britain to violent crime in US you will be surprised.
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