AA - DEEEEEEP vs hudge nit - i cripple the board

[Keyser.]

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I think both lines are very viable and kinda dependent on history/image etc. However - imagine OP had 67s and checked flop, it checked through and he bet the turn. Everyone would be saying 'bad bluff he calls loads of stuff he folds to a flop bet.'

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This is so true. I really liked Pokey's old psychic enemy post despite all the hate it got. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rue#Post6517007

OTOH, the other thing you said about not worrying about trying to win 300bbs is wrong, imo. It would be easy to figure it out mathematically, but I think this is a situation where winning 300bbs a small percent of the time has a higher EV than guaranteeing yourself one extra bet vs. this nit, especially when betting the flop (which helps us win 300bbs when he's huge) will still extract a bet from JJ-KK a decent percent of the time.

kinda like the whole "should I only bet 1/4 of the pot and get called 70% of the time, or overbet shove and get called 25%" when the overbet has the higher EV.

[Keyser.]

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But surely your reraise range includes other hands like 67s or KQs occasionally that require you to bet this flop every time.

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Why would I ever 3-bet 67s/KQ against a nit opening from MP?

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b/c apparently everyone thinks this guy folds to like every flop bet on any relatively scary board.

[ASPoker8]

Keyser, we're winning 300BBs vs TT regardless of whether we bet or check.

Also, we win 300BBs when we check and JJ-KK hits a set.

Also, the difference in BBs won from AK by checking/betting is not large enough to offset the extra value we gain from other hands in his range.

[ASPoker8]

In fact, betting is ONLY the best line if villain has exactly AK.

[Keyser.]

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Keyser, we're winning 300BBs vs TT regardless of whether we bet or check.

Also, we win 300BBs when we check and JJ-KK hits a set.

Also, the difference in BBs won from AK by checking/betting is not large enough to offset the extra value we gain from other hands in his range.

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You might be right, i mean it's obviously close, but I'm still not convinced 100%. I don't think this is true every time, and I have probably more experience playing 300bbs deep vs nits than most people (not a brag I just play the deep games a lot).

He's not getting in 300bbs every time if a broadway card making a potential straight/higher set falls, or if he decides to "trap" the turn and just call a lead like weird ass nits do sometime. I dunno, nits are nits for a reason, they don't bloat pots without the nuts and are always protecting 300bb stacks even if only 1 hand beats them.

I've got a ton of HHs deep vs. 14/9 types that tilt me so bad in spots where they like call down with top 2 vs bottom sets and stuff.

[Unknown Soldier]

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In fact, betting is ONLY the best line if villain has exactly AK.

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the hand we should be most concered with getting max value out of. Why? Well getting value out of JJ-KK is sketchy, you probably won't get much whatever you do.


Another argument against checking in reagrds to those hands in his range are that a scare card like a K or Q could hit the turn, he's going to be alot less likely to call with QQ/JJ respectively if those cards fall.

[Speedlimits]

Bet the flop. I bet JJ-KK here too.
Check the turn with the intention of c/ring.
Bet river.


I agree with Fishsticks that IF you are checking this flop you should definitely check turn (c/r).

[Melchiades]

I think a nit is peeling this flop with KK/QQ. We have a laggy image, he finally picked up one of his hands. He won't fold to one bet.

[loosbastard]

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I bet JJ-KK here too.

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Why?

[loosbastard]

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I think a nit is peeling this flop with KK/QQ. We have a laggy image, he finally picked up one of his hands. He won't fold to one bet.

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Yeah, maybe, and then he's checking turn behind like 100% of the time unless he turns a set, so why are people saying bet flop w/ intentions of C/R'ing turn?