My Christianity: Free Will

[Alex-db]

So, you're saying that

"That an idea has logical contradictions is not sufficient reason to reject that idea, because we may just be unaware of the resolution."

Do you realise the implications of that philosophy across all the fields of everyday life?

You're basically saying that we should accept that anything anyone ever proposes, about anything, is true , since contradiction is insufficient.

[Prodigy54321]

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OP, possibly a bit off topic but I'm curious:

I grew up semi-Catholic (church 1-2x a month, and religious education until I was confirmed). I guess I am somewhere between agnostic/atheist at this point in my life (20yrs old). There is one thing about Catholicism that still really bugs me.

I don't have any hard statistics, but I'd say that 99% of Muslims, Jews, Christians who are born into their religion would never "switch" religions. They may certainly become non-religious but I think that it would be incredibly rare for you to see someone born as a Christian and eventually become a Muslim, or vice versa.

I am also not positive what the scripture says about this, but I believe that if you "reject" Jesus Christ/etc. then you are supposed to goto hell, and being Islamic would certainly seem to qualify as rejecting Jesus.

How do you reconcile the fact that people who grow up Islamic are almost NEVER going to become Christian? That is their way of life, it has been instilled in them from their parents since birth, and its completely unrealistic for them to become Christians.

If Christianity is "right" in the sense that Islam/Judaism is wrong, and the one God is a Christian God, how do you come to terms with all of these people who are essentially [censored] out of luck because of the way they are born?

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You aren't "born" into a religion. You may be born into a home or country or society that embraces a certain religion whether it be Christanity, Islam, Hindu, Jewish, whatever..but you have to choose for yourself whether to accept or reject those views.

You are correct that anyone who chooses not to accept Christ will be in hell. But before the end of time, all humans will have the chance to hear & see Jesus Christ and his Word. It's up to you to accept or reject him. It's a personal choice not a birthright.

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Methinks our beliefs are very similar.

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this is just plain cruel....the bottom line is that if there are two people...one born into a Christian household and one born into a Muslim household...it is much less likely that the one born into the Muslim household will become a Christian than the one born into the Christian household...I grant you that it isn't something that is definite (it is moreso in some place than others...especially where the penalty for apostacy is death)...but that doesn't make it any less ridiculous IMO...

what kind of benevolent god would leave so much up to luck?***...people who have not even been born yet and have yet to make any decisions at all suddenly have the odds either stacked for them or against them...

***but wait, if he already knows who will accept Jesus and who will not, then there is no luck involved...so does he just pick say 85% of people who are going to accept Jesus and make them be born into Christian households?..and take 95% of people who would "reject" Jesus and put them into households of other religious beliefs?

listen, I am not trying to say that there is no possible reason for the way things are if there is a god..in fact, that is impossible to show...

but it is simply much clearer to me that religious belief is closely connected to the religious beliefs of our parents, families, and societies we live in...and we can find reason to believe in anything when our conclusion is given to us before we start evaluating the evidence.

I suppose that doesn't seem cruel to some people..but it does to me..especially when it decides whether or not we go to paradise for an eternity or are tortured for an eternity.

[Mempho]

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You're basically saying that we should accept that anything anyone ever proposes, about anything, is true , since contradiction is insufficient.

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No. Things that are proven are true. Contradictions of truth are false. Intellectual abstraction, however, does not equal contradiction.

[Mempho]

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You're basically saying that we should accept that anything anyone ever proposes, about anything, is true , since contradiction is insufficient.

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I would also add this:

You are unable to prove that a contradiction exists. That means that it is not a fact. It is, therefore, opinion. An opinion is often cited as a belief.

If you wish to explain away the existence of God through logic, you are welcome to attempt to do so. You will stump a lot of people and some will agree even agree with you. That does not change that its provability.

Further, in the process of explaining away God and celebrating the triumph of one's own intellect, one ends up devaluing one's self to an amalgamation of atomic particles.

Why would people do this to themselves?

[vhawk01]

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You're basically saying that we should accept that anything anyone ever proposes, about anything, is true , since contradiction is insufficient.

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No. Things that are proven are true. Contradictions of truth are false. Intellectual abstraction, however, does not equal contradiction.

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Define intellectual abstraction, and then tell me what DOES equal contradiction.

Bear in mind you just said above that a logical contradiction doesn't mean something is false, and are now saying contradictions are false.

[Hopey]

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You're basically saying that we should accept that anything anyone ever proposes, about anything, is true , since contradiction is insufficient.

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I would also add this:

You are unable to prove that a contradiction exists. That means that it is not a fact. It is, therefore, opinion. An opinion is often cited as a belief.

If you wish to explain away the existence of God through logic, you are welcome to attempt to do so. You will stump a lot of people and some will agree even agree with you. That does not change that its provability.

Further, in the process of explaining away God and celebrating the triumph of one's own intellect, one ends up devaluing one's self to an amalgamation of atomic particles.

Why would people do this to themselves?

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Because some people prefer to search for the truth about our existence rather than blindly accepting some idealistic view of our importance in the universe.

[vhawk01]

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You're basically saying that we should accept that anything anyone ever proposes, about anything, is true , since contradiction is insufficient.

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I would also add this:

You are unable to prove that a contradiction exists. That means that it is not a fact. It is, therefore, opinion. An opinion is often cited as a belief.

If you wish to explain away the existence of God through logic, you are welcome to attempt to do so. You will stump a lot of people and some will agree even agree with you. That does not change that its provability.

Further, in the process of explaining away God and celebrating the triumph of one's own intellect, one ends up devaluing one's self to an amalgamation of atomic particles.

Why would people do this to themselves?

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Because some people prefer to search for the truth about our existence rather than blindly accepting some idealistic view of our importance in the universe.

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You forgot to mention that this worldview must be POSSIBLE, and therefore somehow legitimate. Its basically just really low standards. Instead of trying to find out what is probable, lets just rest on our laurels at possible. No matter how unlikely. "Prove it wrong" will be our watchword and we will be warm and snug.

[Hopey]

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You forgot to mention that this worldview must be POSSIBLE, and therefore somehow legitimate. Its basically just really low standards. Instead of trying to find out what is probable, lets just rest on our laurels at possible. No matter how unlikely. "Prove it wrong" will be our watchword and we will be warm and snug.

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Not to mention that if you do "prove it wrong", Mempho will argue that Satan fabricated the evidence.

[Mempho]

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You're basically saying that we should accept that anything anyone ever proposes, about anything, is true , since contradiction is insufficient.

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No. Things that are proven are true. Contradictions of truth are false. Intellectual abstraction, however, does not equal contradiction.

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Define intellectual abstraction, and then tell me what DOES equal contradiction.

Bear in mind you just said above that a logical contradiction doesn't mean something is false, and are now saying contradictions are false.

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You came from the assertion that free will omniscience contradict on a logical basis. I represented that it was not a contradiction since it couldn't be proven. Now, you want to shift the burden of proof to me to prove what DOES constitute a contradiction.

Regardless of the burden of proof issue on this subject, the fallacy is that you are using an objective philosophy to try and disprove something that is neither: omniscience, which is, by its very nature, an exercise in the infinate. As William Blake argued, "The nature of infinity is this: subjective qualities over objective quantities."

Your attempt is to make everything fit into the mold of 2+2=4 and it just doesn't work.

I never said that contradictions are false. I said that if a contradiction can't be proven as a contradiction, then it can't be classified as a contradiction at all.

[Mempho]

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You're basically saying that we should accept that anything anyone ever proposes, about anything, is true , since contradiction is insufficient.

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I would also add this:

You are unable to prove that a contradiction exists. That means that it is not a fact. It is, therefore, opinion. An opinion is often cited as a belief.

If you wish to explain away the existence of God through logic, you are welcome to attempt to do so. You will stump a lot of people and some will agree even agree with you. That does not change that its provability.

Further, in the process of explaining away God and celebrating the triumph of one's own intellect, one ends up devaluing one's self to an amalgamation of atomic particles.

Why would people do this to themselves?

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Because some people prefer to search for the truth about our existence rather than blindly accepting some idealistic view of our importance in the universe.

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You are still blindly accepting the opinion this is a contradiction. It can not be proven and it is, therefore, not a fact.