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#81
09-25-2007, 12:12 PM
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Re: Monopolies wouldn\'t exist in the free market?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] 3. When a firm goes through stage one, if it is publicly owned and traded, it can be short sold by the general public. This, combined with the whole "running a loss for an indeterminate amount of time" thing are probably why firms don't try this strategy.assumes that they take a loss. [/ QUOTE ] Worst counter-argument ever. Isn't the definition of predatory pricing selling below cost, aka, losing money? [/ QUOTE ] If it is, its a poor definition. As long as you are selling below competitors costs, it has the exact same effect. [/ QUOTE ] It's OK to save consumers money, but only if you're making some money. But not too much, then you're price gouging. And we don't have any objective measures for any of this, it's just a matter of whether we like you or not. So watch out. [/ QUOTE ] Of course, pvn pulls out the strawman on anyone who disagrees with him. Anyone surprised? [/ QUOTE ] I'm in agreement with you, genius. The fact that the "predatory" is making or losing money on each sale is irrelevant. If he's selling below the competitors cost, the competitor is "forced" to lose money on each sale, or else lose market share. 
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#82
09-25-2007, 12:14 PM
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Re: Monopolies wouldn\'t exist in the free market?
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[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] What? The regulators are pre-emptively punishing companies *before* they commit these pricing crimes? [/ QUOTE ] no. their mandate is to prevent companies from being in a position to commit "these pricing crimes." therefore not observing "these pricing crimes" can also be linked, in part, to the regulators doing their job, not solely to the implausability of predatory pricing. that is what i pointed out is wrong with your argument. [/ QUOTE ] How do you prevent companies from "being in a postion to commit these pricing crimes" without taking action against them before they've done something "wrong". [/ QUOTE ] it isn't punishing them if the regulations (i.e. the law) are structured such that the actions fall afowl of it. that isn't punishing, that is insuring adherence. [/ QUOTE ] That's orwellian doublespeak. The war on drugs isn't punishing, it's insuring adherence (to some arbitrary behavioral standards that nobody has any legitimate authority to impose). [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] While we're at it, please explian to me the question that's been begged in this entire thread: what exactly is "wrong" about asking $X for product Y? [/ QUOTE ] nothing. all i'm saying is that predatory pricing is possible. i'm not for regulation, i'm havn't stated an opinion on that fact at all other than to question why it would be necessary if predatory pricing couldn't happen. [ QUOTE ] If your cost of production is $100, it's OK to ask $101 for product Y. [/ QUOTE ] it's also OK to ask for $5 if you want to lose money. you can do whatever you want. all i'm talking about is the existance of predatory pricing. [ QUOTE ] But suddenly, if your cost of production is $99, it's bad to ask $101 for the same exact product? [/ QUOTE ] um, no it isn't. [ QUOTE ] Please explain to me why it matters how much I'm making or losing on the transaction. The buyer either finds the product worth the asking price or he doesn't. [/ QUOTE ] when did you get the idea that i'm for the regulation? [ QUOTE ] And please explain what's "good" about price gouging/predatory pricing laws that's different from "bad" price celings/price floors. [/ QUOTE ] nothing. i haven't ever said i'm for the laws. [/ QUOTE ] These were general questions, not just for you. [ QUOTE ] can you provide a link that doesn't come from mises? i'm just asking to link from an independent source (i.e. an academic journal, independent publication etc.). [/ QUOTE ] Please. You wanted a cite, you got one. Either you agree with the facts compliled in there or you don't.
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#83
09-25-2007, 12:16 PM
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Re: Monopolies wouldn\'t exist in the free market?
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apple is by FAR a better technology than microsoft. but who has the dominant share? [/ QUOTE ] This is because the computer market has chosen that there be a dominant provider of OSs. Im surprised nobody has made the arguement that since one single OS makes the computer industry more efficient the government should take it over. But because its a private company that has successfully competed in the free market they are an evil monopoly. How much do I pay for Microsoft products? I paid $200 something like 5 years ago. Its absolutely rediculous to consider this a problem regardless of your definition of monopoly. I only care about competition insofar as it affects the cost of the consumer goods that I am going to purchase.
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#84
09-25-2007, 12:18 PM
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Re: Monopolies wouldn\'t exist in the free market?
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[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Windows is not MSFT's only product. [/ QUOTE ] And pretty much every MSFT product competes with free software. [/ QUOTE ] Only in the sense that Segway competes with Ford. [/ QUOTE ] So mozilla and Linux arent quality products? The point is, is that you arent fored to pay microsofts 'monopoly' prices. There are quality alternative that are free.
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#85
09-25-2007, 12:23 PM
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Re: Monopolies wouldn\'t exist in the free market?
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[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Worst counter-argument ever. Isn't the definition of predatory pricing selling below cost, aka, losing money? [/ QUOTE ] This isnt what we are worried about though, we are worried about the monopoly pricing that will eventually come in the future. I think the inherant problem with the predatory pricing arguement is that its generally much harder to put people out of business than it is for businesses to open up shop. So you end up taking losses for longer than you are going to benefit from monopoly pricing. I have yet to see a convincing example of real world predatory pricing, and if it were economically viable its something we'd see a lot more of. [/ QUOTE ] Look harder- http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...age=0&vc=1 [/ QUOTE ] And how much does this company profit from this activity in terms of ROI? Predatory pricing is something that is going to occur around the equilibrium point of supply and demand. Preventing monopolies isnt just about providing consumers with what they want. Its about finding a balance between the needs of the consumers and profit margins of companies.
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#86
09-25-2007, 12:28 PM
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Re: Monopolies wouldn\'t exist in the free market?
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[ QUOTE ] Are you just pointing out things you see as predatory pricing or are you saying someone should use force to stop these things from happening? [/ QUOTE ] Pointing out things for now. Certainly it exists, unlike unicorns. I am also in a business that has used it in the past very well. [/ QUOTE ] What were your losses and for how long while you were in predatory pricing phase, and how big were your profits and for how long while you were in you monopoly price gouging phase? How does this compare to your natural rate of return in the regular friendly business environment?
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#87
09-25-2007, 12:51 PM
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Re: Monopolies wouldn\'t exist in the free market?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Are you just pointing out things you see as predatory pricing or are you saying someone should use force to stop these things from happening? [/ QUOTE ] Pointing out things for now. Certainly it exists, unlike unicorns. I am also in a business that has used it in the past very well. [/ QUOTE ] What were your losses and for how long while you were in predatory pricing phase, and how big were your profits and for how long while you were in you monopoly price gouging phase? How does this compare to your natural rate of return in the regular friendly business environment? [/ QUOTE ] We didn't have losses, we had much lower costs of making the goods than they did. They are out of business now. Prices are now higher.
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#88
09-25-2007, 01:35 PM
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Re: Monopolies wouldn\'t exist in the free market?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Are you just pointing out things you see as predatory pricing or are you saying someone should use force to stop these things from happening? [/ QUOTE ] Pointing out things for now. Certainly it exists, unlike unicorns. I am also in a business that has used it in the past very well. [/ QUOTE ] What were your losses and for how long while you were in predatory pricing phase, and how big were your profits and for how long while you were in you monopoly price gouging phase? How does this compare to your natural rate of return in the regular friendly business environment? [/ QUOTE ] We didn't have losses, we had much lower costs of making the goods than they did. They are out of business now. Prices are now higher. [/ QUOTE ] If the other business is gone, the demand for your company's products are higher for you, right? According to the laws of supply and demand, shouldn't that indicate that the prices should therefore be higher? Again, how do you distinguish between price cutting to gain more market share and "predatory" price cutting? Or is there no difference?
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#89
09-25-2007, 01:42 PM
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Re: Monopolies wouldn\'t exist in the free market?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Are you just pointing out things you see as predatory pricing or are you saying someone should use force to stop these things from happening? [/ QUOTE ] Pointing out things for now. Certainly it exists, unlike unicorns. I am also in a business that has used it in the past very well. [/ QUOTE ] What were your losses and for how long while you were in predatory pricing phase, and how big were your profits and for how long while you were in you monopoly price gouging phase? How does this compare to your natural rate of return in the regular friendly business environment? [/ QUOTE ] We didn't have losses, we had much lower costs of making the goods than they did. They are out of business now. Prices are now higher. [/ QUOTE ] If the other business is gone, the demand for your company's products are higher for you, right? According to the laws of supply and demand, shouldn't that indicate that the prices should therefore be higher? Again, how do you distinguish between price cutting to gain more market share and "predatory" price cutting? Or is there no difference? [/ QUOTE ] If you raise them after competitors are gone is the easiest way. Its a grayscale, like everything in the real world.
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#90
09-25-2007, 01:49 PM
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Re: Monopolies wouldn\'t exist in the free market?
[ QUOTE ]
If you raise them after competitors are gone is the easiest way. Its a grayscale, like everything in the real world. [/ QUOTE ] Did you miss my point about the new supply/demand structure once the other firm leaves? If a business continues with the old, low price after a jump in demand, they're selling below the equilibrium price. They'd be losing money and irrational according to neoclassical economics, no?
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