Thomas Jefferson on Religion and Legbreaking

[Peter666]

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"What experience are you talking about? We all have many opportunities each and every day to lie, cheat and steal and we *don't* take advantage. Why?"

Because we're afraid of the consequences. Atheists don't need God so long as there is a camera in every house watching every move like in "1984". And that's exactly where atheism leads us to.

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Even without god and laws there are consequences for our actions since we are a) emotional beings, i.e. humans have severe negative psych. reactions to killing and seeing people be killed. And b) we are social beings. Being dangerous is not conducive to being social, and there are clear benefits to participating in society, even if we don't actually care whether people live or die.

I have no idea what your 1984 comment is about. That sounds like an awful future and you provide no evidence for your link between atheism and authoritarianism. Humanism and naturalism--typically identified alongside atheism--are all about the civil liberties.

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Your emotional reactions can be trained to react differently: Nazi Youth, Cambodian brainwashing camps etc.

Humanism and naturalism leads to chaos and anarchy. The only reason the US was able to remain stable was because its inhabitants shared the same basic values. Unless you enforce these values, human nature will eventually go haywire. Note the ever widening gap of values in American Politics.

[Peter666]

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I have eliminated your social records and have you locked up in a room on my private ranch. No one is searching for you. On a whim, I've decided to shoot you in the head. You have one minute to give me a reason why I should not kill you. Go.

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LOL at this. What religious argument would convince someone who has already kidnapped me and imprisoned me in some ranch?

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You should be trying to provide me a utilitarian reason, not a religious one.

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I provided you two already. I will restate them:

1) Personal life enjoyment equity
2) Social benefit equity

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Only in your world, not on my ranch.

[tpir]

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Your emotional reactions can be trained to react differently: Nazi Youth, Cambodian brainwashing camps etc.

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True. But note that it isn't our natural inclination.


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Humanism and naturalism leads to chaos and anarchy.

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Again, you provide no evidence for this link. Also, I thought you said before these ideals led to big brother? Which is it?


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The only reason the US was able to remain stable was because its inhabitants shared the same basic values. Unless you enforce these values, human nature will eventually go haywire.

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You mean the tautological ones like "don't kill people"? Of course we would still enforce things that protected humans. That's why it's called humanism.

[tpir]

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1) Personal life enjoyment equity
2) Social benefit equity

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Only in your world, not on my ranch.

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And? Seems like cleaning up the mess wouldn't really be worth it unless you had some utility in killing: stealing money, removal of a competitor, your personal amusement. If you elect to choose "kill", even on a whim, there isn't much I can do to stop you. Also, what if your gun jams and I disarm you or reach for mine? Which strategy would you want me to now choose? It behooves you to balance yours with mine. And since most people (myself included) are repulsed by bloodshed, "don't kill" is the optimal strategy.

Thankfully, we do not live on your ranch.

[Peter666]

"True. But note that it isn't our natural inclination."

On the contrary, it is very much a part of our nature. From Spartans throwing defective babies off cliffs, to Mongol hordes slaughtering their way through Europe, to declaring preemptive strikes on nations. Throw in food and sex.

"Again, you provide no evidence for this link. Also, I thought you said before these ideals led to big brother? Which is it?"

The attempt to spread democracy in Europe post WWI and the rise of fascism. You need to replace one order with another as the Communists quickly figured out after 1917.

"You mean the tautological ones like "don't kill people"? Of course we would still enforce things that protected humans. That's why it's called humanism."

That's not a problem. Just change the definition of human to whoever you want it to be, and call everyone else "sticks" like in Unit 731, or fetuses.

[tpir]

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"True. But note that it isn't our natural inclination."

On the contrary, it is very much a part of our nature. From Spartans throwing defective babies off cliffs, to Mongol hordes slaughtering their way through Europe, to declaring preemptive strikes on nations. Throw in food and sex.

"Again, you provide no evidence for this link. Also, I thought you said before these ideals led to big brother? Which is it?"

The attempt to spread democracy in Europe post WWI and the rise of fascism. You need to replace one order with another as the Communists quickly figured out after 1917.

"You mean the tautological ones like "don't kill people"? Of course we would still enforce things that protected humans. That's why it's called humanism."

That's not a problem. Just change the definition of human to whoever you want it to be, and call everyone else "sticks" like in Unit 731, or fetuses.

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Now you are just throwing crazy non-sequiturs around. gg.

[Peter666]

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"True. But note that it isn't our natural inclination."

On the contrary, it is very much a part of our nature. From Spartans throwing defective babies off cliffs, to Mongol hordes slaughtering their way through Europe, to declaring preemptive strikes on nations. Throw in food and sex.

"Again, you provide no evidence for this link. Also, I thought you said before these ideals led to big brother? Which is it?"

The attempt to spread democracy in Europe post WWI and the rise of fascism. You need to replace one order with another as the Communists quickly figured out after 1917.

"You mean the tautological ones like "don't kill people"? Of course we would still enforce things that protected humans. That's why it's called humanism."

That's not a problem. Just change the definition of human to whoever you want it to be, and call everyone else "sticks" like in Unit 731, or fetuses.

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Now you are just throwing crazy non-sequiturs around. gg.

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I think you're too biased to make that judgment. I have answered all your questions with historical facts. Now you should show me an atheistic society that represents your ideal, or comes close.

- Perhaps my ranch, where naturalism and freedom reigns.

[foal]

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Your emotional reactions can be trained to react differently: Nazi Youth, Cambodian brainwashing camps etc.

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And religion does nothing to stop this, in fact it tends to be one of the major tools of such training.

[andyfox]

Don't know. Sorry. Doubt it, as the original TJ quote was from his Notes on Virginia.

[Justin A]

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I have eliminated your social records and have you locked up in a room on my private ranch. No one is searching for you. On a whim, I've decided to shoot you in the head. You have one minute to give me a reason why I should not kill you. Go.

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If you think you'll be happier by killing me than by letting me live, then I have no argument to stop you.

This is why society is necessary to set up incentives that make people like you behave in a manner that lines up with the goals of society. In your hypothetical those incentives are gone, so other than offering to do something that benefits you in return for letting me live, I have nothing to say to you. Happy killing.