To the Multi-Accounters : some thoughts before this upcoming Sunday

[IWEARGOGGLES]

I back everything Jeff posts.

And I'll fight you if you disagree. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Foucault]

For what it's worth, I've been staked a few times by Timex and we've never discussed hands nor has he ever in any way tried to influence my decisions or ask me what I have or anything like that.

I guess I'm just naive and out of the loop because it never really occurred to me that this was going on until the ZJ/JJ scandals, and I haven't really thought about it since. I'm glad AJ brought it up, but I believe those of you who claim to have friends doing things you consider to be seriously unethical need to reconsider the meaning of concepts like ethics and friendship.

[KingDan]

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IMO, the shady [censored] in online poker will never end. Sheets/bax/timex staking infinite idiots is no different than multiaccounting.

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No offense to bax/sheets, but I'm pretty sure that many, if not most of the people we stake are better than we are.

I'm trying to think of the last time I tried helping someone I back who went deep in an MTT, the convo went something like this:

"mind sharing hands, Dan"
"no, you [censored] suck, I'm blocking you until I win this thing"
rinse and repeat

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nah didnt block you, just minimized/ignored [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]


At least 6-7 different guys with good poker reputations, some of which I really didnt know at all were offering me hand advice. These are people with no vested interest in me, I can only imagine some of these guys if they had a significant %.

[NateAvenson]

This was brought up before but didn't get much of a responce. I am interested in what everyone thinks about the differences ethically (I think it has been established that there is nothing illegal going on here) between these scenarios.

1. You are sitting at a desk with two laptops in front of you. Each is logged onto a different account and both are playing the same MTT.

2. You stake a player %100 and offer him $xx or xx% to just do what you tell him to. You each grab a laptop and sit down on the same couch and he plays every hand like you tell him to.

3. You and a friend are playing the same MTT while sitting on a couch next to each other. You both occassionally say "I think I'm gonna xxxx here, what do you think?"

4. Same as #3 except you have swapped %50 of each other.

5. Same as #3(or #4 I guess), except if you end up on the same table you go into seperate rooms specifically to avoid collusion.

Here's what I think.

1. Wrong...Just plain wrong.

2. Wrong, but somewhat profitable for your friend.

3. This seems ok to me. You couldn't do this live, but I just consider it to be one of the benefits of online play, like not having to keep a poker face when you flop a monster. Your friend may be offering advise, but it's up to you what you do unlike in scenario #2.

4. This still seems ok, but may be just barely crossing into the "grey area". It seems in this scenario that both hands are being played by two players. Not illegal (atleast on poker stars anyway) but a little grey in the ethical department.

5. If #4 slipped into the grey, this deffinately helps bring it back into the white.(white is good right?) It shows that your intent is not to cheat.

In conclusion, I think that we all need to make up our own minds about what is ethical behavior and what is not. I also think that we should discuss ethics in hopes of coming to a conclusion about what is ok and what is not ok. Not that we could enforce our conclusions. Ethics don't have to be enforced. They are not rules, just guides more or less. Someone mentioned earlier that if you don't like the way your friends are behaving ethically, you CAN do something about it. Don't invite them out to social gatherings, home games, etc. This will probably hit them hardest. Telling PS about there behavior won't do anything, but letting them know that you don't opprove and WE don't approve will. There is a lot of ego involved in this game, and no one wants to be known as a cheater. Thanks Jeff for bringing this subject into the light.

[timex]

1) Obviously very wrong
2) I think it depends on the nature of it, this is to some extent how I went from playing 1/2 limit to being good at poker within like 2 months(except I wasn't being staked).

If the goal is to teach someone how to play poker, I think this is a great idea, if the person playing has no intention of learning, then I think its pretty immoral.

I have had friends who I want to teach to play poker, and what I'll do is if they come by on a normal day, they'll just play their standard 4/180's, $6 SNGs etc, once they get better and come by on Sundays and want to have a shot at the Stars million(like just about every other person), I'd much rather pay a % of their buyin, or fully stake them then have them spending $215 on a stupidly high variance tournament on a 1k roll.


3) Perfectly fine
4) Perfectly fine
5) I'm pretty sure most people are smart enough(I could be wrong) to play the same independent of whether you are right beside your friend or in different rooms.

[supernick24]

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I back everything Jeff posts.

And I'll fight you if you disagree. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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seconded


also, i really don't understand the people hating on jeff. so what if he doesnt want to rat people out? hes giving cheaters a chance to clean up their act without smearing their names. i think this was a very classy warning to anyone who is cheating. maybe he has conflicting feelings about this issue, and wants to hear other points of view. well done actionjeff.

[Jonathan]

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I agree a few people in vegas I've met I've told them straightup that what they are doing is sooo wrong and they should stop because they won't keep getting away with it. People have too much ego to not brag about winning so and so tourney even when their most common account was out in first hour.

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I would appreciate it if you would give an example of this. Most of us are
not "in the know" to the same degree as you and ActionJeff are. But my
money goes into the pool just like yours. I thought this whole messy
business was cleaned up a few years ago when several accounts were
very publicly confiscated. To hear that this sort of thing continues makes
me incensed!

Shawn, rather than tread on tiptoes on this issue, I think you would be doing
the community a great service is you showed the results of a few
tournaments where Player X claimed to win (or place high) and his
primary account got knocked out early. This would go a long way towards
making the game fairer for all, including yourself.

Thanks,
jonathan

[0evg0]

I've never played a tournament on more than one account before, but I've gotten input from players (both better and worse) than me during a hand somewhere close to a trillion times. Most of the time without any prompting.

My conscious is pretty clear, and if anyone thinks solely sweating a friend/peer over AIM is morally wrong, well then [censored] your morals.

[adanthar]

wow this was such a useful thread and it got derailed into oblivion so fast.

you guys have no idea of the magnitude of the situation. I didn't either but I learned a lot this month. listen to Jeff, because he knows what he's talking about, and it's a Big Deal.

the fact that basically 3-4 of the last 100 people left in the Million (if not 8-10, who knows) are guaranteed to be dupes, trojan horses or JJProdigy is just [censored] sick.

[Jonathan]

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I wonder why no one complains when people think I am helping people I stake...maybe its...oh jdhaskjfhksdhfksah.

I dont get warning letters, I get thank you notes from their opponents.

sheets

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¡Olé!