Question on raising/"one chip rule"

[AngusThermopyle]

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I still don't understand how silently throwing out enough money to raise is not a raise.

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Next time your bill for lunch is $22, give the waitress two $20's. I'm sure she will appreciate the $18 tip.

[Javanewt]

Nobody has specifically mentioned a casino/facility doing anything else, but many of us have seen it as a call, which it is [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

It would be interesting if someone knew of a place that doesn't consider this a call.

[amead]

While I agree that this is a call in just about all places, the rule is obviously ambiguous/unclear/confusing if so many folks here disagree.

Consider this case:

Preflop, 1/2NL game. UTG raises to 6$. 2 or 3 people call, and you wish to raise. You throw out 1 red and 1 green chip.

This certainly would appear to be a raise, but I guess it must not be, since you could be using the green as a single large chip. I mean, if all you had were two chips, the red and the green, or if you had 1 red and a whole stack of green, that's all you could use to call the bet. And if it could be a call, it must be a call according to RR (who obviously is the knowledge nuts here).

I bet you though, that in nearly all cases, the player tossing the red and green would be treated as if he raised by the dealer. Could be wrong though, as obviously this doesn't happen often.

So to recap: 6$ bet, and you toss a red and any other denomination chip. That'd have to be a call too, right? (With no verbal declaration)...

Edit: I guess the player should just toss out the single green here to signify the call, if he wished to call. Does this supercede? Because you _could_ use a single different denomination chip, do you HAVE to?

[RR]

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This certainly would appear to be a raise, but I guess it must not be, since you could be using the green as a single large chip. I mean, if all you had were two chips, the red and the green, or if you had 1 red and a whole stack of green, that's all you could use to call the bet.

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This is a raise as the green chip is enough to call the bet, putting the red chip in with it makes it a raise.

[bav]

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Preflop, 1/2NL game. UTG raises to 6$. 2 or 3 people call, and you wish to raise. You throw out 1 red and 1 green chip.

This certainly would appear to be a raise, but I guess it must not be, since you could be using the green as a single large chip.

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NO. You're still not getting it.

A lone $25 would be enough to call the $6. If that's what you want to do, put out the single $25. You're done. No need for a $5. The ONLY reason to put out $25+5 is if you're raising to more than $25.

[cpk]

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Nobody has specifically mentioned a casino/facility doing anything else, but many of us have seen it as a call, which it is [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

It would be interesting if someone knew of a place that doesn't consider this a call.

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Unless they've changed something recently, Tulalip (WA) doesn't use the single-oversized chip rule in cash spread-limit games. If you bring enough over the line to constitute a raise, it's a raise, period.

[QuadsOverQuads]

By standard poker rules, placing $10 into the pot when facing a $6 bet and a minimum reraise size of $4 is a clear raise. The full amount of the raise has been placed into the pot, using multiple chips (hence, no recourse to the oversized chip rule).

As a dealer, I will call this a binding raise 100% of the time (and I deal a low-limit spread game where situations like this are not uncommon).

If you fail to call this situation consistently, you open your game up to the following angle-shot:

SB : $1
BB : $2
P1 : $6 (+$4)
P2 : $10 (two red chips)
P2 then looks around for reaction.
P2 (*likes reaction*) : "that was a raise! I put $10 out!"
P2 (*doesn't like reaction*) : "that was a call! My intent was clearly just to call!"

I have players who will use this angle at almost every opportunity if given the chance. Part of my job as a dealer is to make sure my game doesn't provide them that opportunity.


q/q

[QuadsOverQuads]

A second point that so far has been overlooked in this discussion:

If an action is truly ambiguous, the dealer can simply halt the action and ask the player to clarify. "Sir, are you calling or raising?" Simple, effective, and encourages clarity in future actions. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]


q/q

[BillytheKidd]

As explained to me by Hawaiin Gardens floor, their no-limit games require all raises to be twice the previous bet. So in this case it would be a call because the previous bet was $6, so the raise would be to $12. Although one could argue the more than half the raise amount. I still think they are wrong about this (and not only because it cost me an opportunity to reraise with my AA).

However, in this OP's case it is clearly a call because the first chip is inqdequate to call making the second chip "oversized" and without declaring raise it is automatically a call with an oversized chip.

[DeathDonkey]

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Guys,

It's a call. As usual, in such situations, if you're confused just read RR's explanation.

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Yep. It took me til last year in the WSOP to understand the rule. Limit event, 300/600 level, on the turn player A bets 600 with a 500 and a 100 chip, player B raises with two 500 chips and two 100 chips. Player C throws out two 1k chips, many at the table understand he intended to raise based on flop action. Player A folds, player B tries to 4 bet when it is pointed out by someone not in the hand that player C only called the bet. Players B, and C protest, floor is called, its ruled a call. Player A is now livid, as he would have called for one more bet knowing player B could not reraise. Player A gets a nice 20 minute time out for swearing at the floorman, player C is close to the same, player B is mad too. The guy who said the rule and asked for the floor is an experienced tournament pro (who's name I don't know sadly) and was clearly correct but pissed everyone off. Good times.

-DeathDonkey