Wynn 10k Poker Classic Hand

[mikeJ]

No one commented on merits of reraising flop besides me.

[betgo]

The board is paired, there is a 2-flush and you have the low end of the straight draw, so fold to the flop raise.

Avoid the problem in the first place by not limping this hand in early position. This hand is fine to limp behind in late position. In early position, I don't see a lot of value in seeing a flop with 54s. This hand plays much better when raised, as you can misrepresent it. So I say raise or fold preflop. If you can't raise it for fear of a reraise, then fold.

[JSchnett]

I fold the turn because I don't feel like you have much equity in bluffing in this pot and you wont get enough action out of him when you hit. You also have to worry about his boat possibilities which aren't great but really hurt you when you are trying to get max value out of him when you hit your card.

Thanks for posting Justin, I appreciate it.

[skeemer1]

Basically, you have played the hand to bluff the flush if it hits, or get paid on the straight if you hit, and given that the straight hit you should typically try to get paid.
Given that you had no solid read on the player, you almost have to go on a generalized betting pattern and what he is representing, which seems to be a bare 6 on the flop.
Someone suggested that you should have folded the turn as he may have a flush draw, taking away 2 of your outs, but that is an absurd statement, as no one would make such a small check raise on that flop with a flush draw OOP. This should be obvious, as they are either going to get reraised by trips, or get trapped. It is for that reason i would essentially eliminate a flush draw from the possibilities.
Also, raising the flop OOP would imply strength, meaning trips. It wouldn't usually mean a boat, as he would not want to lose a player that has a flush or straight draw if that player is already drawing dead, might as well keep both players in the hand if you believe they are drawing to 5 outs max combined (meaning an overpair for one player and a 6 with a live kicker for the other)
Therefore, it seems that the raise on the flop is almost always bare trips, and if you feel that this player will gamble for his stack with any 6 if you hit on the turn, then it is +cev to call the flop raise.
The turn blanks, and he bets roughly 1/2 the pot, which is a scary bet, as it seems that he may be trying to lure you into the pot. But, if you think about it, unless he has exactly 6 2, this turn does nothing to change my perception of the fact that he has a bare 6. I think in order to call this bet, you have to be fairly certain that he will call off his stack with an unimproved hand on the river.
Also, given the way that you have played the hand so far, i wouldn't be against pushing right now, as it seems that he is doing everything he can to keep the pot small and not commit himself. It seems that he is betting his hand because he has to, not because he wants to. While it could be a boat, it is much more likely to be a 6 that he is not happy with. Given that live tourneys (especially 10K events) play much tighter than online games, and that he most likely knows how well you play, that a raise here will win the pot a vast majority of the time.
The river seems to be a good card for you, but what does he put you on here? if he thinks you have a flush draw, why wouldnt he check call, allowing you to take a stab? He knows he is getting called by a good 6, and obviously getting at least a call from a boat. So his bet on the river looks a little fishy, almost crying for a call. I think this really hurts the value of your hand, as a bet that committed himself would be much better to reraise against, as it is more likely that he has nothing. The way the hand played, it is more likely that he has a huge hand, and while it is a terrible situation, i think you have to just call the river, as the only hands that he can really call any reraise with is A6, K6 and Q6. I know that you have played the hand to get paid, but given the way that it went, i cant see many hands that a solid player would call a raise with.

[ZeeJustin]

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I raised to 6.5k planning to fold to a reraise.

Villain pondered for ~10 seconds, and said something like, "Wow, I guess I'm paying off Seven's full here" and called.

He had 68 and rivered his boat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems kinda dumb for villian to put you on sevens full here. I don't think you'd bet the flop w/ two ppl left to act behind you nor would you call the turn quickly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would never check that flop with 77.

Why would a fast call on the turn be bad w/ 77? A fast call makes it look like a flush draw. Trying to make a boat look like a draw seems like a standard line to me.

[ZeeJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
The board is paired, there is a 2-flush and you have the low end of the straight draw, so fold to the flop raise.

Avoid the problem in the first place by not limping this hand in early position. This hand is fine to limp behind in late position. In early position, I don't see a lot of value in seeing a flop with 54s. This hand plays much better when raised, as you can misrepresent it. So I say raise or fold preflop. If you can't raise it for fear of a reraise, then fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Betgo, I don't think you've ever played a deepstack live tournament before. They are vastly different from the online tourneys you are used to.

[shaundeeb]

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The board is paired, there is a 2-flush and you have the low end of the straight draw, so fold to the flop raise.

Avoid the problem in the first place by not limping this hand in early position. This hand is fine to limp behind in late position. In early position, I don't see a lot of value in seeing a flop with 54s. This hand plays much better when raised, as you can misrepresent it. So I say raise or fold preflop. If you can't raise it for fear of a reraise, then fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Betgo, I don't think you've ever played a deepstack live tournament before. They are vastly different from the online tourneys you are used to.

[/ QUOTE ]

betgo has played more live than 99% of us posters half his hands posted are live.

[0evg0]

[ QUOTE ]
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The board is paired, there is a 2-flush and you have the low end of the straight draw, so fold to the flop raise.

Avoid the problem in the first place by not limping this hand in early position. This hand is fine to limp behind in late position. In early position, I don't see a lot of value in seeing a flop with 54s. This hand plays much better when raised, as you can misrepresent it. So I say raise or fold preflop. If you can't raise it for fear of a reraise, then fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Betgo, I don't think you've ever played a deepstack live tournament before. They are vastly different from the online tourneys you are used to.

[/ QUOTE ]

betgo has played more live than 99% of us posters half his hands posted are live.

[/ QUOTE ]

some people also take 6 years to graduate high school.

i really think the turn here is just really poor. we can talk about the viability of using a river club to get him off a naked 6 vs the value of our draw when he doesnt fold the naked 6, etc but i really don't think we're deep enough to make that a profitable call on the turn because of how short we'll be on the river, but mostly because of the unpredictability of what villain would do with XX, YY, or ZZ.

folding the flop however is just dumb if for no other reason than because the % of the time he has air after the flop is much much much higher than after the turn bet.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The board is paired, there is a 2-flush and you have the low end of the straight draw, so fold to the flop raise.

Avoid the problem in the first place by not limping this hand in early position. This hand is fine to limp behind in late position. In early position, I don't see a lot of value in seeing a flop with 54s. This hand plays much better when raised, as you can misrepresent it. So I say raise or fold preflop. If you can't raise it for fear of a reraise, then fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Betgo, I don't think you've ever played a deepstack live tournament before. They are vastly different from the online tourneys you are used to.

[/ QUOTE ]

I play a lot of live tournaments, mostly in the $300-$2000 range, and they generally are deep stacked for a while. I have only played one major tournament. I understand how to play online tournaments better. I am sure you have a better understanding of live tournaments than I do, and definately a different style.

In a live tournament, villain is less likely to be bluffing on the flop, and, even if he is, he is still a favorite with two overcards. Pretty much the only way you can win at showdown is to make a straight, and there are a lot of ways a straight may not be good. I guess it is OK to continue if you are planning on bluffing in a lot of situations.

Preflop, when you limp 54s in early position, you are likely to get raised off of it, and if not, you just have an inferior hand OOP.

If you raise this hand preflop, you usually totally miss, so you can throw it away or bluff it real strongly without worrying about having anything to show down. If you hit, your opponent will almost certainly misread your hand.

I probably wouldn't raise as many hands as you do at this stage, and I probably wouldn't play the limped pot as well postflop, so maybe you can make the limp work. However, you tend to make a straight, flush, straight draw, flush draw, trips, two pair, or one pair that may not be good, if you connect at all with 54s.

[registrar]

I don't play these buyins at all but I think the fact that villain doesn't get more value out of a rivered boat, check-raises trips no kicker from BB in a limped pot, and appears to think he's behind on the river demonstrates that limping in these events is a good play by hero. It also justifies every street because it appears that villain is folding to clubs and possibly on any river that doesn't fill him up, having check-raised and then further inflated the pot OOP on the turn. At every buyin I've played, and from what I've read on these boards, there are always lots of seemingly competent players who just play badly in complex situations and playing pots with them, in any position, is always likely to be profitable for OP.