Theory - EP in Full Ring

[Fly]

dbitel said
[ QUOTE ]

preflop, TT is the 5th best hand, you really telling me that over 50% of the time, some1 has one of the top 4 hands?? If you're limp/calling 99/TT and c/f the flop everytime you miss a set...WOW..you're missing out on some serious value here"

[/ QUOTE ]

TT maybe the best hand in a pure mathematical sense (are you holding my statements to a mathematically rigorous standard?). My point is that TT only has a tiny edge over many of the hands it is "better" then (overcards, suited overcards). Further since you are not putting all (or even a significant amount) of your money in an open raise this argument for raising TT is ridiculous b/c it fails to consider other, far more important factors which will determine the play of a hand.

dbitel said

[ QUOTE ]

OK, so we open limp. I presume we're c/f every time we don't flop a set? How often do pots get raised? like, at least 50% of the time? So we're l/c 5BB. And lets say the guy is NOT a nit, and his raise doesn't mean JJ+/AK and he cbets when you check to him, then its just not +EV to limp/call preflop, b/c you're folding the best hand far too often on the flop. Now lets presume he's a nit. Then yeah, you prob do have set odds, but remeber that the nits are also harder to stack a lot of the time, b/c they know what a limp/call UTG means.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can make plenty of money from limped pots. While you may not be stacking people as often as in raised pots you don't need to be since your initial investment is 4-5-6x smaller.

You do not have to check/fold any flop you miss. You can still play poker. You can lead or check-raise (though I really dislike this) sometimes depending on the board and the opponent(s). The nits may "know" what you have but that doesn't mean they won't stack off anyway. You can also play sets creatively against nits. But remember, most nits are playing plenty of tables at FR and will not notice the limp/calling as much as you think. Further, other players either won't notice, won't be able to put 2 and 2 together or simply won't care.

dbitel said

[ QUOTE ]

Now how the [censored] can you think raising low PP UTG is -EV? IMO, raising ATC UTG is +EV so long as you don't do it too often (law of diminishing returns etc) when you flop cbet takes the pot down. And is soooo much easier to stack some1 in a raised pot than a limped pot, especially on a flop of rags when they don't believe you

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah my favorite tactic, contradictory assumptions. You can raise small pairs cause you'll take the pots down on the flop w/ C-bets. But wait, on a flop of rags people won't "believe you" (i.e won't fold to ur c-bets) and will call you down!

In any case, you are way overestimating how often you'll be able to take the pot down on the flop. This isn't 6max.

[epdaws]

[ QUOTE ]
TT maybe the best hand in a pure mathematical sense (are you holding my statements to a mathematically rigorous standard?).

[/ QUOTE ]

No, how about a standard of basic, elementary-level comprehension? TT is going to be the best hand very often. Period.

[ QUOTE ]
My point is that TT only has a tiny edge over many of the hands it is "better" then (overcards, suited overcards).

[/ QUOTE ]

No. The range of hands that will call your raise is wide, and includes all kinds of small pairs, some suited ace/rag and even suited connectors. You flip against overcards, you'll often find out preflop if you're up against an overpair, and you dominate the rest. Taking the range as a whole, you are a BIG favorite. I'm reasonably certain it's a good idea to get more money when you have a sizeable edge.

[ QUOTE ]
you are way overestimating how often you'll be able to take the pot down on the flop. This isn't 6max.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, you're wrong. I've played full ring for a year and a half and am now playing a split. Continuation bets take it down VERY often on the flop as long as it's not a big multiway affair, and contrary to what you might reply, you don't often have three or four callers when you open raise from EP or MP.

Also, this will help: learn to play better when out of position.

[poincaraux]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, this will help: learn to play better when out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]
35 posts left 'till you're a Pooh Bah .. this would be an awesome topic. I vote for a big long post with specific examples included.

[epdaws]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, this will help: learn to play better when out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]
35 posts left 'till you're a Pooh Bah .. this would be an awesome topic. I vote for a big long post with specific examples included.

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't thought too much about a PB post, Poin, primarily because I'm not sure I'm enough of an authority or that people care enough to read what I have to say in an essay. But that's a topic that might work.

[Fly]

[ QUOTE ]

Yeah, you're wrong. I've played full ring for a year and a half and am now playing a split. Continuation bets take it down VERY often on the flop as long as it's not a big multiway affair, and contrary to what you might reply, you don't often have three or four callers when you open raise from EP or MP.


[/ QUOTE ]

Are those c-bets from pfr's in position or OOP? And you often have atleast two callers. I, personally do not c-bet hands w/ little hope of improvement into two opponents when OOP.

[ QUOTE ]

Also, this will help: learn to play better when out of position.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is true.

[epdaws]

[ QUOTE ]
Are those c-bets from pfr's in position or OOP? And you often have atleast two callers. I, personally do not c-bet hands w/ little hope of improvement into two opponents.


[/ QUOTE ]

When I'm OOP and I was the PFR, I'll fire just about always into one opponent. When I'm OOP and I was the PFR, I'll fire into two opponents if I think I have the best hand, which is often enough. Sometimes I'll check/raise with a hand like KK; sometimes I'll check/raise with 8 high.

[poincaraux]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, this will help: learn to play better when out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]
35 posts left 'till you're a Pooh Bah .. this would be an awesome topic. I vote for a big long post with specific examples included.

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't thought too much about a PB post, Poin, primarily because I'm not sure I'm enough of an authority or that people care enough to read what I have to say in an essay. But that's a topic that might work.

[/ QUOTE ]
I feel exactly the same way myself. I think you should write one for at least three reasons:

1) The process of writing out a longer essay post will clarify things in your mind quite a bit. When I write longer things about poker (ask me about jam-or-fold HU NL!), it's more for my own benefit than anyone else's. The fact that I can give some value back to SSNL is just an added bonus, and making SSNL better will make me better.

2) Even if you don't get as much feedback on longer posts, it's likely that you'll get more quality feedback.

3) If your post sucks, people will tell you, you'll get a chance to fix some deeper flaws in your own game and your post won't get stickied.

Thinking about it, the third option could easily be the most +EV.

So .. write a PB post and make sure to link me to this post when I get close to 1600 posts [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

[Fly]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are those c-bets from pfr's in position or OOP? And you often have atleast two callers. I, personally do not c-bet hands w/ little hope of improvement into two opponents.


[/ QUOTE ]

When I'm OOP and I was the PFR, I'll fire just about always into one opponent. When I'm OOP and I was the PFR, I'll fire into two opponents if I think I have the best hand, which is often enough. Sometimes I'll check/raise with a hand like KK; sometimes I'll check/raise with 8 high.

[/ QUOTE ]

How often are you gonna think you have the best hand on the flop w/ a small to medium pocket pair? Come on.

[epdaws]

[ QUOTE ]
How often are you gonna think you have the best hand on the flop w/ a small to medium pocket pair? Come on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you under the impression that your opponents improve when they see the flop the majority of the time?

[NewUser2006]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Newuser said:
As long as you're not likely to face a big raise, limping early often encourages a windfall effect and encourage other limpers, which helps your hand out.

[/ QUOTE ]

The above in reference to open limping a drawing hand (such as T8) up front. This phenomenon doesnt help your hand out at all. You've got a drawing hand and therefore want position and most of all initiative. Unless you're just there waiting to flop your share of 'good hands' and be done with poker.

Sure, when everyone limps behind you, you get sweet sweet (limitpokerlike) odds to continue with the hand when you flop a draw and someone behind you bets (smallish) and a couple of yokels come with. But that's not what you want to play NL for is it? The thing about NL is maximizing all the possible potential the game has to offer to make the other guy screw up. I can recognize precious little of that attitude in this strategem.


[/ QUOTE ]

RUSE,

Yeah, it is possible to argue that you won't win the hand as often as when you are shorthanded than when you are multi-way, but that's not really the point. When you've got a hand like A7s or 76s, you're not really looking to flop a pair, you're looking to catch a big hand that can make a big pot. Implied odds are tremendous in multi-way pots, simply because its so much more likely that someone else catches a piece with you.

To everyone else:
The hands like AJs and KQs also don't fair too well when you raise it because you're most likely to be beaten when you are called. Now this can be argued at a very loose table, and I'm sure you can pick which table situations make it right to raise or limp, but generally even the live ones tighten up significantly when you raise. What you DON'T want is that everyone folds their KTo and QJo, because you're so far ahead of them and can often score 2 or 3 bets while facing no resistance. A raise from EP gets people to fold the hands you beat, and call with the hands that beat you are have live draws against you.

I really do think that your 6-max playing has "clouded" your judgement for full ring, especially EP... you either advocate SUPER tight playing or super loose-aggressive playing like you're playing 6-max. There is a comfortable middle-ground in full ring.