Yanks offer job to Girardi

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Yeah, I'm sure you "randomly" selected those dates. Why don't you link me to the site you're going back in time to see the standings? I'll do it myself.


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LOL. I am not going to give you the link... it is a very obscure site that very few baseball fans have heard of: mlb.com.

And those dates were random -- but it is entirely besides the point. I am pretty sure they were within five games for the entire first two weeks of September. If I recall correctly, they actually were the Wild Card leaders (or shared the lead) at some point in August or early September. Regardless of your attempts to back out, 2 games back with 17 to go means you are in the race.

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a litany of other teams were a little ahead or a little behind and their teams just weren't that great.

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No one said the 2006 Marlins were great! They had a legitimate shot at making the playoffs through the second week in September. That was the only point. Many not-so-great teams make the playoffs -- and some win the World Series (particularly in the years since the wild card was added).

But again, you miss the point. The Marlins had a legitimate shot at the playoffs. When you are a contender, you do not begin resting starters (that are not known to be injured) and preparing for next year in early September. No team would do that. Girardi did not abuse his young pitchers. All of his pitchers were young and they shared the work load. No one has shown evidence to the contrary.

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Just because YOU don't keep up with injuries on young pitchers doesn't mean we don't have a lot of knowledge on the subject.

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You have not shown any.

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Pitchers, but young pitchers especially, pitching 110+ pitches = bad. 115 and 120+ = super super bad. Even if you don't get hurt the performance suffers. You don't do these things ever. Girardi did.


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This is just absolutely wrong.

Josh Johnson went over 110 pitches four times in 2006 and never over 120.

Scott Olson went over 110 pitches four times in 2006 and never over 120.

Annibal Sanchez went over 110 pitches once in 2006 and never over 120.

Ricky Nolasco went over 110 pitches once (and that was 111 pitches in his last game of the 2006 season).

Look at some of the premium pitchers of our time and you will see that they pitched far more pitches in their first years than these guys did. The fact is Girardi had four rookies pitching at the same time and that left very little room for extra rest for the "young guy." They were all young guys.

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He actually had an in-depth post about it and it was very good. How do I know? I read it. Try looking harder.

EDIT: You may not want to look because you know it rapes every part of your argument. Can't blame you there.

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You are really proving to be very dense. I have seen his detailed posts and they are very flawed. But that is entirely besides the point right now.

I asked for one thing: A link that showed that Girardi was given instructions or guidelines by management for the usage of his young pitchers and that he did not follow those guidelines. He said he posted one. I couldn't find it. If you know of one, you can post it or you can STFU. Respectfully.

[THAY3R]

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Vyse, there's very little doubt to my mind that with the question of pitching the youngsters with a slight chance at the wildcard, Loria would have ordered full steam ahead.

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As will Hank Steinbrenner, and that's the crux of the issue, really, at least as it pertains to Hughes, Kennedy, Joba, etc. It's easy for Hank to say otherwise now, but when your father's control of the team just resulted in 12 playoff years in a row, do you really think he'll sit by and let a reasonably possible playoff run go by the wayside, just because his pitchers are young?

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Mondo, you keep forgetting something important. The Yankees have resourses that other teams don't. If they need someone in June, they will get it whether it's a trade or call up. If they are 10 games out in June and Santana is still available, they will get him. They stared the 2007 season almost 10 games under .500 on June 1st and made the WC. The were 11-19 in 2005 I think. It's not like it's an organization like the Royals that has no shot. You are making a big mistake if you think NY is all of a sudden just not going to win anymore.

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I'm not forgetting any of that at all. What I am saying is that, if the Yankees are in a position to get there, but aren't quite there, do they let Girardi push those young arms like he did in Florida? Yes, Santana may be out there next year -- this year, there were no premier rent-a-pitchers out there for the stretch run, only abject retreads. Of course the Yankees won't stand pat, but if the pickings end up being as slim as they where in early August of this year (quite probably not, but possibly), then don't Hank and Cashman start having Girardi ride those arms? Because if there is one certainty out there, it's that Hank isn't going to accept winning next year any less than George would have.

The Yankees have plenty of resources, and they had them this year, but there weren't the arms to be had. That could always turn out to be the case next year.

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Last year the Yankees implemented Joba rules AND shut down Ian Kennedy. They were also extra cautious with Hughes' injury recoveries.

So yea, once again you show your cluelessness.

[Vyse]

WHY DO I ARGUE WITH SUCH DENSE PEOPLE? JESUS CHRIST.

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Yeah, I'm sure you "randomly" selected those dates. Why don't you link me to the site you're going back in time to see the standings? I'll do it myself.


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LOL. I am not going to give you the link... it is a very obscure site that very few baseball fans have heard of: mlb.com.

And those dates were random -- but it is entirely besides the point. I am pretty sure they were within five games for the entire first two weeks of September. If I recall correctly, they actually were the Wild Card leaders (or shared the lead) at some point in August or early September. Regardless of your attempts to back out, 2 games back with 17 to go means you are in the race.

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So I was pretty much on the button when I said this:

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And I said "chance," not "games back in Wild Card." The Braves and Rockies, for example, were statistically "in the race" for the Wild Card in early September but were long shots to actually make the playoffs because while they weren't super far back, a litany of other teams were a little ahead or a little behind and their teams just weren't that great.

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Again, the Marlins were with SIX other teams with near-identical records, and EIGHT if you include the Braves and D-Backs. So the Marlins were a league-average team fighting for the wild card against six other teams, probably 3-4 of which were better than them. Not only are they an underdog to make the playoffs, their future is in their young players, so no matter what you don't rape their arms just to have a HOPE at making the playoffs. Nevermind that raping your pitchers happens over the course of an ENTIRE season, not two weeks or three weeks. It's not like Joe said, "You know, we're battling six other teams to maybe make the wild card! TIME TO BLOW OUT YOUR ARM JOSH JOHNSON. Hey you little bitch Ricky Nolasco, you're going to pitch forever. Dontrelle Willis, get used to throwing 130 pitches a game."

If all his damage occured then, maybe you'd have a point. But you don't, so alack.

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No one said the 2006 Marlins were great!

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No one said anyone said the 2006 Marlins were great. How is this relevant again?

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They had a legitimate shot at making the playoffs through the second week in September.

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What is a "legitimate shot"? No, seriously, I don't know what it is. A 0.001%? Any mathematical shot? What does the % have to be over? What % does it have to be over before it's okay to start enhancing the risk to the only valuable commodity the team has for the next five years (starting pitching)?

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That was the only point. Many not-so-great teams make the playoffs -- and some win the World Series (particularly in the years since the wild card was added).

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Theoretical question: So on Sept. 15th, right before the Rockies started their 21-for-22 or whatever run, you would give the OK to the manager to start overtaxing the young SPs as hard as you think is necessary to win the games just because there's a "legitimate shot" at making the playoffs?

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When you are a contender, you do not begin resting starters (that are not known to be injured) and preparing for next year in early September.

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Again, you miss the point. You don't magically start abusing your SPs in September. That may be when the worse occurs, but when so many young pitchers set career highs in IPs they shouldn't be setting (over the 30 IP benchmark) and have pitch counts they shouldn't be having, that's indicative of somethinig done over the entire season. Apparently Girardi broke team regulations and sent Josh Johnson out after a rain delay. Guess where Johnson is now? That's not necessarily cause and effect, but from what we know about injuries that's a very bad thing to do to a young pitcher and definitely contributed to enhancing JJ's injury risk. Girardi went all Seattle Mariners on his pitchers. And you're going to excuse that?

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No team would do that. Girardi did not abuse his young pitchers. All of his pitchers were young and they shared the work load. No one has shown evidence to the contrary.

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DesertCat did. Sorry you can't find it.

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You have not shown any.

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www.baseballprospectus.com
www.DesertCatsPostingHistory.com
www.thehardballtimes.com

blah blah blah I'm sure there's tons of work over many sabermetrically-inclined sites and writers, try reading it.

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Look at some of the premium pitchers of our time and you will see that they pitched far more pitches in their first years than these guys did.

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It's too bad that getting an out in today's game has been ever-increasing and is much much harder than the days when everyone had magically amazing complete games and IP totals and etc. etc.

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The fact is Girardi had four rookies pitching at the same time and that left very little room for extra rest for the "young guy." They were all young guys.

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Ah, so OBVIOUSLY Girardi's only option was "blow out everyone's arm and wreck their future seasons."

lol @ you not including willis btw.

[THAY3R]

I really feel that the Yankees management know what they're doing re: the young guys.

If Girardi does stuff they do not approve of he will be fired.

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He without a doubt abused Josh Johnson. There is absolutely no debate about this. The Yankees cannot have this happening - but I expect ownership to be stronger about such things.

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Actually, there is quite a bit of debate about this and Josh Johnson disputes this himself... injury was very likely pre-existing (undetected?)... but you can google search as well as I can... There was a one game incident with a rain delay and coming back to pitch after 80+ minutes. Is that the limit of the abuse?

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You again ignore all points and post a very confusing collection with quote boxes flying all over the place. Learn how to read AND edit your post so it reads coherently and I will respond substantively.

[Vyse]

Translation: I got raped.

gg.

[DesertCat]

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Marlins' Girardi not coming back, source says

By Mike Berardino
South Florida Sun-Sentinel
Posted September 22 2006, 1:09 AM EDT

Joe Girardi, who guided the surprising Marlins into playoff contention despite baseball's lowest payroll, will soon be out as manager after just one season.

On a scale of 1 to 10, Girardi's chances of returning next year are "zero," according to a source who has spoken with the Marlins' front office.

"I don't think there is any chance," the source said.

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The last straw for Girardi, 41, apparently was his ill-fated decision to bring back prized right-hander Josh Johnson after an 82-minute rain delay at Dolphin Stadium on Sept. 12.

"Not one of the smarter moves of the year," said the source, adding the Marlins' decision makers were "shocked" Johnson returned to the mound that night.

With the Marlins still clinging to wild-card hopes, Johnson tried to stay loose by playing catch with Dontrelle Willis in an indoor batting cage. That Johnson left four innings later with cramping in his forearm and was subsequently shut down for the year with a strained ligament did not help Girardi's case.

Sunday's 10th-inning meltdown in Atlanta was another strike against Girardi, who had never managed at any level before this season. Marlins management was disappointed Girardi inserted little-used center fielder Reggie Abercrombie as a defensive replacement instead of the more polished Eric Reed.

Two Abercrombie misplays opened the door for the Braves to rally from a four-run deficit to hand the Marlins a crushing 8-7 defeat that essentially ended their playoff chances.

Nor has it helped that Girardi's tense relations with Marlins management have not improved. The rookie manager and General Manager Larry Beinfest "barely speak" and have "no relationship at all," the source said.

Although Beinfest recently said Girardi and his staff deserved "a lot of credit" for the team's turnaround, he stopped short of an outright endorsement. Unlike most GMs, Beinfest is rarely seen in the manager's office anymore.

Marlins President David Samson appeared this week on ESPN and said the team would evaluate Girardi at the end of the season, but the source said that process already has been completed.

There also has been talk of frosty relations between Girardi and first base coach Perry Hill, a holdover from former manager Jack McKeon's staff and a longtime favorite of Marlins owner Jeffrey Loria. Hill left the Marlins this week for the fourth time this season because of a family medical problem.

At odds with Loria and the rest of the front office almost from the time he was hired last October, Girardi was nearly fired on Aug. 6 after a home loss to the Dodgers. That was the steamy afternoon when Girardi and bench coach Gary Tuck yelled at Loria to stop criticizing umpire Larry Vanover from his field-level seat, witnesses said.

According to reports, Girardi later apologized to Loria in front of the team, but the manager and owner have been unable to bridge the gulf between them.

"His introverted behavior and lack of people skills have caused most of the problems," the source said of Girardi, who spent one season as Yankees bench coach after a 15-year playing career. "Both sides are at fault."

Sources also told the Sun-Sentinel in the past month that Girardi and the front office have clashed over numerous personnel decisions, including where to play Miguel Cabrera, Dan Uggla and Josh Willingham and whether to use Johnson and Ricky Nolasco as starters or relievers.

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[Mondogarage]

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Vyse, there's very little doubt to my mind that with the question of pitching the youngsters with a slight chance at the wildcard, Loria would have ordered full steam ahead.

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As will Hank Steinbrenner, and that's the crux of the issue, really, at least as it pertains to Hughes, Kennedy, Joba, etc. It's easy for Hank to say otherwise now, but when your father's control of the team just resulted in 12 playoff years in a row, do you really think he'll sit by and let a reasonably possible playoff run go by the wayside, just because his pitchers are young?

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Mondo, you keep forgetting something important. The Yankees have resourses that other teams don't. If they need someone in June, they will get it whether it's a trade or call up. If they are 10 games out in June and Santana is still available, they will get him. They stared the 2007 season almost 10 games under .500 on June 1st and made the WC. The were 11-19 in 2005 I think. It's not like it's an organization like the Royals that has no shot. You are making a big mistake if you think NY is all of a sudden just not going to win anymore.

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I'm not forgetting any of that at all. What I am saying is that, if the Yankees are in a position to get there, but aren't quite there, do they let Girardi push those young arms like he did in Florida? Yes, Santana may be out there next year -- this year, there were no premier rent-a-pitchers out there for the stretch run, only abject retreads. Of course the Yankees won't stand pat, but if the pickings end up being as slim as they where in early August of this year (quite probably not, but possibly), then don't Hank and Cashman start having Girardi ride those arms? Because if there is one certainty out there, it's that Hank isn't going to accept winning next year any less than George would have.

The Yankees have plenty of resources, and they had them this year, but there weren't the arms to be had. That could always turn out to be the case next year.

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Last year the Yankees implemented Joba rules AND shut down Ian Kennedy. They were also extra cautious with Hughes' injury recoveries.

So yea, once again you show your cluelessness.

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Yup, I showed me "cluelessness" by asking questions and asking for others' thoughts and opinions. Duh. I thought that's why people asked questions, to learn from others. If you could be bothered to see through your own snarky superiority complex long enough, you would see that I was asking for the opinion of others who might have more of a clue.

But no, you'd rather just take the opportunity to try show someone else up, instead. That's your problem, not mine. Now, if you'd actually like to take a crack at answering my solicitation for opinions on what the Yanks do in August, that's fine. Hell, it would be welcomed.

But no, I'm pretty sure you'd rather just reply with another snide comment aimed at someone who's not a knowledgeable fan of your favorite team, instead of trying to explain things that you may know about your favorite team that outsiders may not. That's fine, too, I'll get my information from someone who's less of an [censored].