Gauging Ron Paul Support

[Nielsio]

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Oh, I think it's definitely on the rise, entirely due to the Internet, but I certainly don't think there's going to be a huge uprising anytime soon or anything.

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<font color="purple">The times, they are a-changin'</font>

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Bob Dylan, awesome.

Niels, honest question, from your picutres I'd guess you're about 24ish, do you expect to see any major (i.e. first world) government collapse and go AC in your lifetime? If not, do you expect to see a large Libertarian movement in those countries in your lifetime.

Cody


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<font color="purple">You will choose to stay at home, brother. For you will be able to do everything you need from your potato couch. You will be able to don your virtual helmet and experience the Revolution on 360 degree all-round CGI. You may choose to view as manga, or Hanna-Barbera, as the Hair-Bear bunch.

Because the Revolution will be televised.

The Revolution will be brought to you by Apple Mac or PC World, with Nokia and Motorolla providing SMS updates. The Revolution will show pictures of hopefuls queueing overnight for the latest audition.

The Revolution will be sponsored by Gap, the Khaki-and-Camel collection, and it will star me, as you. You will play yourself, or Brad Pitt playing you. Or you, playing Brad Pitt, playing you.

The Revolution will be smoked, snorted, injected, chased or vapourised. It will be recording on mini-TV and kept in the pocket. The Revolution will be digitised, then transferred to all available formats. It will appear on your favourite CD as the bonus track. You will be able to procure it cheap on VHS, or pay a little bit more for the extra footage on DVD. Betamax will be available for the old-school, who are more gunshoe than gumshoe, with their shell-toes and grips. The Revolution will shoot from the hip.

The Revolution will be scratched, spun back and sampled as a loop. It will appear as the red button on your remote control. The Revolution will operate a job-share, or flexi-time option, so you can have it at your leisure.

Because the Revolution will be digitised.

The Revolution will be permed, highlighted and set. It will have its own award ceremony, with the biggest winners unable to attend except for via live satelite link, because of their current Revolutionary commitments. The Revolution will be a teacup in a storm, or a bottle in a message, or a door to a key. The Revolution will always come with fries.

Because the Revolution will be televised.

The Revolution will be heard, my brothers, because it will use viagra, camagra, oral tightening, hardening of the arteries, in order to fit inside Ronald's Happy Meal box as the free gift. The Revolution will have a new twist, sponsored by Levi, with a sticker campaign written in an eligible graffiti-style font.

Because the Revolution will be advertised.

And pay-per-view will have a whole new meaning, brothers. The Revolution will be available for Gameboy this fall, and X Box and Gamecube today. The Revolution will be televised, will be televised, will be televised, brothers.

Because the Revolution is alive.</font>


http://www.tunes.co.uk/tunes/featured/7904.html
http://vhata.net/blog/2005/02/13/revolverlution

[ConstantineX]

I doubt very much that libertarianism is a popular ideology. This probably arises from the human cognitive bias of overconfidence, as well distortions from selfish motivations. How many people will readily recognize the self-organizing aspects of markets versus a more "centrally-planned" ideology? It is not a popular position; many people think of libertarians as Pollyanna-like figures, ostriches in the sand who are too "weak" to pursue true fairer-minded policies. Moreover, libertarianism is a hard ideology to espouse particularly for short-term politicians and voters, who want immediate results implemented by their own hand, and the distributed nature of the benefits afforded by classically liberal policies are often overshadowed by immediate, apparent gains from selfish (not to their own eye) interests seeking short-term gains.

That's not to say I don't believe libertarianism is on the rise. Few serious policy makers would fully decry capitalism, as the failures of communism have made themselves far too readily apparent in the death tolls of Stalinist Russia and Mao's China. Moreover, there's a deeply ingrained appreciation for competition and entrepreneurs in the American psyche, especially in the recent age of abundance, particularly with regards to consumer electronics. (I am continuously amazed that the synthesis of so much technological research, things like high-definition plasmas and computers, are readily available, commoditized even, that even the poor can afford them). The role of the Internet, especially, in popularizing libertarianism by the virtue of its vibrant, unorganized nature shouldn't be underestimated. The increasing flux in demographics as well I think also promotes at least more right-wing conservatism, not necessarily libertarian, but I find liberty in economics (modern conservatism) more important than social liberty, at least in the short-term. Research has shown for example, that Americans are far more opposed to welfare in part because it benefits proportionally more blacks and immigrants than people who are like "them". In the European countries, where nationality is more defined on an "ethnic" basis, people are far more welcoming towards government intervention because it benefits "them".

Libertarianism is the most far-sighted political ideology. Conservatives ignore the virtues of social liberty in favor of economic liberty, and liberals mostly vice-versa. Tellingly, both groups espouse government authoritarianism to achieve those ends. It's a cruel vindication of the theory of Darwinian selection in that a society that appreciates government, libertarianism will be very unpopular - it will never comprise a significant share of a democratic voting population.

[Nielsio]

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it will never comprise a significant share of a democratic voting population.

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Stephanopolus?

[ConstantineX]

Why does that bother you so Nielsio?

Don't you disdain "Might Vs. Right"? Why should it bother you what any number of people think; you've argued that it should have no bearing on the underlying morality of an action. Maybe it has to do with your anarcho-capitalist position.

Let me be clear. I do think things could be unequovically better if humans were [censored] economicus, purely vehicles that pursued their best economic interests in an AC society. My problem with anarcho-capitalism isn't that it couldn't be founded, or that it would be taken over by a rival government, or any of the commonly voiced objections. I just think that no matter how good it got, no matter how well the private system functioned, people would simply VOTE themselves a government, using their liberty to constrain others'. As a libertarian, I'd rather pre-empt that fact, using good institutions guided by experts to constrain even pure democracy's most liberty-constraining motivations.

And government gets better. Even government, devoid of its good incentives is subject to evolutionary pressures. America's political system for all its faults is far better than the vagaries of a monarchy or feudal lord. Highly mobile capital (read, HMK, the benefits of fiat money NOT backed by gold) and highly mobile people continue to serve in the globalized society as pressures that incentivizes government to continue to get better. Humans will never abandon government because their evolutionary-designed behaviors and drives are conditioned to listen to people of authority, grant them vast scope and power in a time when these things were literally life-and-death. Unless we're living in a post- Singularity world, I hardly see AC happening.

[Nielsio]

4000 BC - Writing
1440 AD - Printing press
1623 AD - Mechanical calculating machine
1890 AD - Tabulating machine
1941 AD - Operative digital computer
1969 AD - Arpanet
1974 AD - Telenet
1979 AD - Usenet
1979 AD - Arpanet TCP/IP
1987 AD - 10K hosts
1989 AD - 100K hosts
1991 AD - Web server
1992 AD - 1M hosts
2007 AD, June - 1.154 billion users



Information and communication &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&g t;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; scams.

Literal religion and statism are doomed.

[owsley]

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4000 BC - Writing
1440 AD - Printing press
1623 AD - Mechanical calculating machine
1890 AD - Tabulating machine
1941 AD - Operative digital computer
1969 AD - Arpanet
1974 AD - Telenet
1979 AD - Usenet
1979 AD - Arpanet TCP/IP
1987 AD - 10K hosts
1989 AD - 100K hosts
1991 AD - Web server
1992 AD - 1M hosts
2007 AD, June - 1.154 billion users



Information and communication &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&g t;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; scams.

Literal religion and statism are doomed.




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Most people are going to ignore this as just Nielso cheerleading and indulging himself with rhetoric but it is a good perspective for everyone to consider regardless of what their personal beliefs are. No matter what your viewpoints are, pretty much everyone who thinks about politics today doesn't spend enough time examining the big picture of what ideas are rising and falling and how everything we currently take for granted can, has, and inevitably will change.

[Richard Tanner]

Doesn't that pic/chart that Niels is spamming also present a danger to the freedom side, namely that the powers-that-be will be able to reach more gullible masses to re-enforce their ranks? Is that a concern, or is the house of cards falling so rapidly that this doesn't matter.

Cody

[ALawPoker]

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Doesn't that pic/chart that Niels is spamming also present a danger to the freedom side, namely that the powers-that-be will be able to reach more gullible masses to re-enforce their ranks? Is that a concern, or is the house of cards falling so rapidly that this doesn't matter.

Cody

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I think the easier communication becomes the harder it generally is to trick people.

[AlexM]

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Doesn't that pic/chart that Niels is spamming also present a danger to the freedom side, namely that the powers-that-be will be able to reach more gullible masses to re-enforce their ranks? Is that a concern, or is the house of cards falling so rapidly that this doesn't matter.

Cody

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The "powers-that-be" are already the ones in control of the communication, so freer communication can only circumvent them. Now, it's possible that they'll take control of the Internet at some point, but I don't really see how short of some serious tyranny that even the tamest sheep would be bothered by. More likely would be them simply saturating the Internet and drowning out the dissenters with their "message," which isn't humanly possible at this time, but might be possible if they develop an AI to do it.

[pvn]

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Doesn't that pic/chart that Niels is spamming also present a danger to the freedom side, namely that the powers-that-be will be able to reach more gullible masses to re-enforce their ranks? Is that a concern, or is the house of cards falling so rapidly that this doesn't matter.

Cody

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The "powers-that-be" are already the ones in control of the communication, so freer communication can only circumvent them. Now, it's possible that they'll take control of the Internet at some point, but I don't really see how short of some serious tyranny that even the tamest sheep would be bothered by. More likely would be them simply saturating the Internet and drowning out the dissenters with their "message," which isn't humanly possible at this time, but might be possible if they develop an AI to do it.

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Is Q/Q the prototype?