How to play 2/4 Limit in a Casino?

[jjshabado]

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I defy anyone to need to put a read on somebody at 2/4 limit.

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Why on earth would you need to put a read on anyone at a game that sees flops 6-9 handed? You'll have odds to call most draws to try to hit on the river. The real skill in this game is maximum extraction of value out of the hands you do hit hard and value betting the marginal hands. Who the hell cares about reads at a 2/4 limit game?


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Yeah I agree, the real money in these games is knowing when to do things like chase a gutshot straight (big enough pot, its not the sucker end, no flush out there, etc.) and when not to. Thats what brings home the bacon.

That being said you can save/make a lot of money by making reads at the table. You don't have to be able to put someone on a hand, but after an hour at a table I know the players that I'll fold TPTK to their raise, and the players that I'll call down with A high. Hell these reads are easier at 2/4 then anywhere else because half the time the tight players will tell you that they only raise 2 pair or better, never bluff, never checkraise, won't raise preflop with anything other than KK or AA, etc. These reads are how you bring home the toast to eat with your bacon.

[FireStorm]

The looseness of the game is one thing. It's actually beneficial to someone who plays solid and patiently and grasps the math concept well when it applies the the 7 to a flop/4 to a showdown line of thinking here. You WANT these idiots in hands with you b/c over the long run, you will get handed chips from payoff wizards who look you up on the river with bottom 2 on a four flush board. You will have to deal with the short term headache and annoyance at K-6 cracking your QQ on the river after calling on a T-6-3 flop, but in the long term, you are going to make a ton off these idiot players.

The rake is another story. This is a legitimate reason to avoid playign these games. Rake, travel costs if any, tipping, and food/drinks/tips are going to severely cut into your profit margin to the point where it may not be worth it to play in this game. You will also not gain anything in terms of getting live experience reading players, bluffing, or things like playing position heads up, etc, in these games.

[jjshabado]

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You will also not gain anything in terms of getting live experience reading players, bluffing, or things like playing position heads up, etc, in these games.

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I disagree with everything here except the heads up part (which does happen very rarely). Reading players is important. In these low limit games there are still bluffing opportunities and to take advantage of them you have to be able to read the other players and figure out if the bluff makes sense.

There are very very few games that are always 6 or more players to the flop. Your average pot may have that many people but there will still be times that you're playing against one or two solid players and you can experiment with making moves.

[EgoSlasher]

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Are you on crack? First off I already own SSH. I doubt if you sat down and applied it to a 2/4 game at any tourist casino in vegas could you turn a profit that wasn't 98% luck based.

Math wise with 6 to 8 going to the flop you are a mathematical dog with any hand. I find absolutely no poker value in playing at this level other than the procedure of placing bet for a live novice who only plays online. First chance you get you should be moving up to 4/8 and then apply SSH. 2/4 live isn't small stakes. It is micro stakes.

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Yes I sure would hate to be inflating a pot I win 25% of the time vs 8 people. Did you just skim over the chapter about equity? It's probably not that important anyways.

[bav]

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Wow, what a shock. A bunch of experts who never lose and play poker perfectly.

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In a year stickney will be re-reading what he posted here and shaking his head wondering how he coulda been so stupid. That, or he'll be busto and won't be visiting 2+2 at all.

I'm reminded of the chat I had with a couple old codgers once after a chick got all-in pre-flop with her AA against two other players and lost. Soon as she's outta ear-shot old codger 1 begins his chat with old codger 2...

OC1: She deserved to lose! She misplayed that. She only raised a little with AA and that lead to two other people all-in preflop. Everybody KNOWS AA loses except heads-up.
OC2: Absolutely...I *HATE* AA and I just go all-in with 'em pre-flop everytime I get 'em 'cause that's the only way to be sure there won't me more than one caller. She really misplayed that letting two people in.
Me: I think she did pretty well...she got all her money in pre-flop as a huge favorite.
OC1: Bulls***! She was no favorite.
Me: Sure she was...AA is always the favorite pre-flop.
OC2: You're crazy! If there are 9 players seeing the flop you really think AA is going to win more than half the time?
Me: No
OC2: SEE! It's NOT the favorite.

I realize I made a major mistake opening my mouth and at this point thank the gentlemen for their sage advice.

Math is hard.

[Cactus Jack]

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Wow, what a shock. A bunch of experts who never lose and play poker perfectly.

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In a year stickney will be re-reading what he posted here and shaking his head wondering how he coulda been so stupid. That, or he'll be busto and won't be visiting 2+2 at all.

Math is hard.

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I don't know why I try to explain things to people who always know more than I, but I'll try, stickney.

I said if you can't beat 2/4, you will never beat the higher games. I have lost at 2/4 and 3/6. Many, many times. Ok, a few times, but only because I was card dead, tired, a newbie, etc. I'm not sure I'm an overall winner, even, because I moved up pretty fast. Come to think of it, I moved up because I won money at the 2/4--3/6 games. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

A good poker player makes adjustments to the competition. The old saw--when they're loose, tighten up and when they're tight, loosen up--is true. You adjust to the table. If you're playing the same way they play, you lose. If you can't beat the worst players on the planet, can you beat better players?

When I first started playing Hold 'Em, I started online with play money. People said it was not a true test because the players don't play the same as they would were the stakes for real money. The same thing is said of the 2/4 games. I won play money stakes and at 2/4 by playing better than my opponents.

Play well, get paid. The rake is another matter, but not the point.

Also, stick, you're reply shows you're probably not teachable, as no one here has ever said they always win. Arguing with hard-heads is not winnable. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Good story, bav. Illustrates the point, nicely, and why there will always be good money to be made as so many don't get it. lol

CJ

[FireStorm]

Sorry, JJShabado, but disagree. You may be able to practice picking up some physical tells, and getting accurate ideas on who raises what preflop, but as for getting past the flop, I don't really see many accurante hand range reading opportunities. Are you going to go into the tank to assess your TPGK equity versus a 60 year old woman who can't read the board and calls every bet b/c it's "only another FOUR dollars!" ?? What range of hands do you put a 22 year old Asian kid on in a 5 way pot with the board reading Js-Ts-4c-Ad-8s, half of the deck?

As for bluffing opportunities, cmon. You want to fire off bluffs in a 2-4 Limit game where the vast majority of showdowns end up 3 or 4 way? I suppose in a 10 hour session you might be able to find 5 spots in which you put the other player on a missed draw and fire the river with air, but really, this is not the game to work on getting people off the best hand or identifying missed draws/overs. You can experiement as you said with making moves versus good players, but you will be looked up constantly and you won't derive any information as to whether or not your move was a good one, b/c most of the calls you get will make little sense.

I disagree that the majority of flops won't be 6 way. Maybe 5 is a better number but honestly you will have very few pots that are at a manageable level with 3 or less players.

[FireStorm]

Bav, you could have tried to explain the merits of the word "plurality" to the old man, but, it would have fallen on deaf ears. As for keeping your mouth closed and not giving away anything, it's a moot point, you could talk strategy all you want, this 100 year old man will continue to debate with you and never take in a word you say. You won't be improving his game at all by explaining equity of taking AA to a flop 8 ways and still showing a positive outcome b/c you win the hand 20% of the time, etc.

[Nuevo99]

Ive found that these generalizations about the level are pretty casino dependent. Now that a lot of people are not playing online anymore a lot of fairly average (but still beatable) players are playing 2/4 and 3/6 because they cant afford the higher games. They are not the morons that you try to portray here necessarily.

And as far as the morons you just have to still identify what their motivation is and you can still pick up on tells (especially the ones who are just chasing and hit their big hand)

Most of the time you probally have to call anyway because of the pot odds situation, but you can still detect what's going on at the table.

As far as your first example, if you are playing the 60 year old lady who cant read the board and you have TPGK, then you have to value bet it. If she gets lucky and beats you at that point it's just that luck. In the long run it's got to make you a decent amount of money.

So what is someone's range is almost anything? If you know that, it's still valuable information to have. In the long run you will still beat them if you factor that into your decision making process enough and value bet.


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Sorry, JJShabado, but disagree. You may be able to practice picking up some physical tells, and getting accurate ideas on who raises what preflop, but as for getting past the flop, I don't really see many accurante hand range reading opportunities. Are you going to go into the tank to assess your TPGK equity versus a 60 year old woman who can't read the board and calls every bet b/c it's "only another FOUR dollars!" ?? What range of hands do you put a 22 year old Asian kid on in a 5 way pot with the board reading Js-Ts-4c-Ad-8s, half of the deck?

As for bluffing opportunities, cmon. You want to fire off bluffs in a 2-4 Limit game where the vast majority of showdowns end up 3 or 4 way? I suppose in a 10 hour session you might be able to find 5 spots in which you put the other player on a missed draw and fire the river with air, but really, this is not the game to work on getting people off the best hand or identifying missed draws/overs. You can experiement as you said with making moves versus good players, but you will be looked up constantly and you won't derive any information as to whether or not your move was a good one, b/c most of the calls you get will make little sense.

I disagree that the majority of flops won't be 6 way. Maybe 5 is a better number but honestly you will have very few pots that are at a manageable level with 3 or less players.

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[daveT]

If you hold pocket kings and there is an ACE on the board, check and fold...

A4offsoot wins it again!