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#81
07-21-2007, 02:09 AM
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Re: I learned about waco tonight..
Wow Nielsio, I'm surprised you haven't seen this until now. This is definitely a must watch documentary.
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#82
07-21-2007, 05:10 AM
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Re: I learned about waco tonight..
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Metric, Are you a voluntaryist? [/ QUOTE ] I suppose so. With regard to government, I guess you could call me an "asymptotic ACist," if you take my meaning. [/ QUOTE ] Not sure what you mean. [/ QUOTE ] I don't think an immediate end to all government right now is necessarily a good idea, but I think that over the long term, the ideal situation is that government becomes closer and closer to nonexistent -- and the sooner we get started on this track, the better. So I guess this means that as of right now, I'd be better described as a Libertarian than an ACist -- but extrapolating into the future, ACism is where I'd like to see things eventually go. [/ QUOTE ] I consider myself an ACist and would prefer a transition period. I am pretty sure there would be pandamonium in the streets if government disappeared overnight.
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#83
07-21-2007, 07:40 AM
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Re: I learned about waco tonight..
You know, if you weren't aware of Waco, I wonder if you're aware of this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge
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#84
07-21-2007, 08:20 AM
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Re: I learned about waco tonight..
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Metric, Are you a voluntaryist? [/ QUOTE ] I suppose so. With regard to government, I guess you could call me an "asymptotic ACist," if you take my meaning. [/ QUOTE ] Not sure what you mean. [/ QUOTE ] I don't think an immediate end to all government right now is necessarily a good idea, but I think that over the long term, the ideal situation is that government becomes closer and closer to nonexistent -- and the sooner we get started on this track, the better. So I guess this means that as of right now, I'd be better described as a Libertarian than an ACist -- but extrapolating into the future, ACism is where I'd like to see things eventually go. [/ QUOTE ] Well, yeah. It's the ideas in the minds of the people that I want changed. The rest follows automatically. You can't have one without the other. As long as territorial monopolies are viewed as virtue-es and not as criminal, they will exist. But hey, welcome to the club [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2363188212 http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2511301766
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#85
07-23-2007, 11:00 PM
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Re: I learned about waco tonight..
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I don't even give a crap if they WERE doing illegal things [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, nothing at all wrong with taking sexual liberties with a twelve-year-old. The nerve of those busybodies at CPS. . . . [/ QUOTE ] The initial reason for the raid was, IIRC, firearms violations, not allegations of sexual abuse. I think the government handled the situation badly, but I think Koresh and the Davidians hold a great deal of responsibility for the tragedy. Regardless of whether the inital raid was justified or not, any time you try to do armed battle with law enforcement, the results are almost certain to be bad. Doing so in a manner that puts children in harms way is unforgivable, IMO. Actually, the Ruby Ridge incident bothers me a whole lot more than Waco, because violation (of which Randy Weaver was eventually acquited) was so minor, and the force with which the government responded was so disproprtionate. Here too, though, Weaver behaved foolishly. He would have been much better off to surrender to law enforcement and fight his battle in court than to try to shoot it out, and his family would have survived.
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#86
07-24-2007, 07:36 AM
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Re: I learned about waco tonight..
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I don't even give a crap if they WERE doing illegal things [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, nothing at all wrong with taking sexual liberties with a twelve-year-old. The nerve of those busybodies at CPS. . . . [/ QUOTE ] The initial reason for the raid was, IIRC, firearms violations, not allegations of sexual abuse. I think the government handled the situation badly, but I think Koresh and the Davidians hold a great deal of responsibility for the tragedy. Regardless of whether the inital raid was justified or not, any time you try to do armed battle with law enforcement, the results are almost certain to be bad. Doing so in a manner that puts children in harms way is unforgivable, IMO. Actually, the Ruby Ridge incident bothers me a whole lot more than Waco, because violation (of which Randy Weaver was eventually acquited) was so minor, and the force with which the government responded was so disproprtionate. Here too, though, Weaver behaved foolishly. He would have been much better off to surrender to law enforcement and fight his battle in court than to try to shoot it out, and his family would have survived. [/ QUOTE ] Why is the greater responsibility to behave 'non foolishly' on the individuals and not the government's police aparatus? Did you watch the video links provided by neilsio about Waco? There was a guy in the compound on a 911 call begging for the troops who were firing on them to be called off upon the initial siege, begging and repeating there are women and children in here please call them off. There is also expert testimony on those links analyzing the night vision/heat detection radar stuff they have from a plane showing clearly shots were fired when the gov't testimony insists there was none. I only had a vague notion of what happend at Waco, the links were very educational.
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#87
07-24-2007, 11:20 AM
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Re: I learned about waco tonight..
[ QUOTE ]
Here too, though, Weaver behaved foolishly. He would have been much better off to surrender to law enforcement and fight his battle in court than to try to shoot it out, and his family would have survived. [/ QUOTE ] even if he surrendered immediately I think some people would still be dead, his son maybe and the friend of the family I think and of course the dog.
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#88
07-26-2007, 05:41 AM
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Re: I learned about waco tonight..
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Exactly. The ATF and FBI are a bunch of insane killers. Calling them a cult would be too mild. [/ QUOTE ] well the haruchi sniper guy did kill vicki weaver when she was unarmed and holding a baby, and got promoted for it, so it's hard to argue with you. [/ QUOTE ] Didn't one of the weavers fire upon a federal agent as he was walking through the woods which incited the entire incident? And I'm fairly positive the man who actually pulled the trigger and shot down vicki weaver was an HRT sniper, and after review by the FBI was never allowed to carry a firearm again. Read the book Cold Zero for a first hand account by an HRT Sniper who was at both Ruby Ridge and Waco. Though i'm sure you'll dismiss the whole thing as govt. propaganda
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#89
07-26-2007, 05:51 AM
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Re: I learned about waco tonight..
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] In the end, David Koresh (group's messiah/leader) and his group were doing plenty of illegal things [/ QUOTE ] name them please. also to others it is not disputed that army special forces were there at waco, I guess that could be considered a military presence. [/ QUOTE ] "Others"? WTF? This is completely ridiculous. I'm sure the Green Berets were at Waco, you know calling in airstrikes and stuff. At best I've seen that Delta operators were called in to Langley, to discuss the best option regarding hostage rescue(considering that's what they're trained to do) and counterterror. But of course you pay attention to crackpot sites screaming about Delta being on site and in command or what have you. IMO SFOD-D has enough on their plate than to deal with some nutjob like Koresh barricading himself in some compound. But Nielsio probably doesn't have the least understanding about Delta or what they do so here come the theories...
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#90
07-26-2007, 06:06 AM
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Re: I learned about waco tonight..
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] In the end, David Koresh (group's messiah/leader) and his group were doing plenty of illegal things [/ QUOTE ] name them please. also to others it is not disputed that army special forces were there at waco, I guess that could be considered a military presence. [/ QUOTE ] "Others"? WTF? This is completely ridiculous. I'm sure the Green Berets were at Waco, you know calling in airstrikes and stuff. At best I've seen that Delta operators were called in to Langley, to discuss the best option regarding hostage rescue(considering that's what they're trained to do) and counterterror. But of course you pay attention to crackpot sites screaming about Delta being on site and in command or what have you. IMO SFOD-D has enough on their plate than to deal with some nutjob like Koresh barricading himself in some compound. But Nielsio probably doesn't have the least understanding about Delta or what they do so here come the theories... [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, Delta reviewed the ATF's plan before the raid and thought it was a dangerous joke. At least, that's what the Delta officer said when he testified to Congress after the whole affair. If Delta had been in charge of the raid, it would have either worked or never have happened. Those guys are good.
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