Wealth is Relative

[hmkpoker]

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This is an excellent point. A lot of what consumers are actually seeking in their purchases is status. Having something that no one else has is very, very cool. I remember being the first kid in my class to get a Sony Playstation, which quickly made me a lot of friends (until everyone else got one). That happens with everything. New technology is always expensive as hell when it first comes on the market, then rapidly plummets when it becomes "obsolete." Having an iPhone (or whatever the spankin' new gadget may be) isn't just about having a convenient, touch-sensitive phone, mp3 player and web browser, it's about being the only guy with an iPhone. (I can understand, and even sympathize with leftist psychologists who claim that limiting our consumer options might actually have positive psychic effects; unfortunately the macroeconomic repurcussions of what they advocate are terrifying.)

This is pretty deeply rooted in our culture, and I think that's sad; if you're able to overcome this kind of consumer fetishism, living comfortably is really affordable. Watching your shows on a 720p HDTV isn't that much better than watching them on a good old fashioned CRT.

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You sound like a commie.

Seriously, though, I'm glad you understand at least part of what I'm trying to say.

Capitalism is like running a treadmill, where the end result is always just slightly out of reach.

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I'm just someone who understands basic psychology.

These problems are NOT inherent in capitalism. There is not even any good reason to suspect that. Individuals can transcend consumer fetishism in a free market. Here are some ways you can do it:

- Stop whining
- Get out of debt
- Get some friends who like doing what you like to do, and hang out a lot
- Get laid
- Pick up a relaxing hobby
- Meditation/spirituality
- Try some psychedelics

Are we really supposed to believe that, because capitalism is like running a treadmill, socialism (being the opposite) will suddenly fill the void in everyone's life by limiting their options and halting innovation? The soviets and the chinese were given all that was allowed by their government. They simply were not permitted to have/do any more. Did they all attain the state of nirvana? No, they were simply sent to the gulags every time they tried working toward a preferable state of affairs.

Human wants are inherently endless. That's not capitalism's fault.

[John Kilduff]

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I should have mentioned that there's a second, very relevant possible interpretation. This is that people actually do feel happier today than they did fifty years ago, but they report it differently. 1950s person says, "I have this tiny grain black & white television. It's state of the art, I can't imagine anything better, and therefore I am as happy as it's possible to be with it." Move to the present day, and the same consumer reports the same feelings about his 80" LCD HDTV. This is true even if 1950s man's subjective happiness was lower because he was watching a crappy TV. He couldn't realize it, and therefore report it, because he didn't know what TV-related happiness is.


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There are two problems with this example. The first is that is supposes a person who has a subjective experience on happiness can somehow be wrong. What is happiness, besides a subjective experience? How can you be unhappy, if you don't realize that you are? (Doesn't unrealized unhappiness = not unhappy?)

The other is that it supposes that a 80" LCD HDTV makes you happy. It makes you happy - at most- until a 100" LCD HDTV comes out. Just as the 1950's person was happy with his B&W TV only until the color ones came out.

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I'm sorry, but in my opinion, anyone whose happiness about having an 80" LCD TV changes to unhappiness as soon as a 100" version comes out, would probably benefit from psychological counseling. It's just my opinion, but I believe that would indicate an unbalanced and unhealthy psychological profile (if happiness about something which is very nice could so easily turn to unhappiness as soon as that nice thing is no longer "the very best" available).

Simply put, a person with such a psychological makeup could never be happy about anything - for long. Sorry again but that just seems pretty bizarre to me.

[AlexM]

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Capitalism is like running a treadmill, where the end result is always just slightly out of reach.

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No, capitalism is simply having and trading stuff. The only end result is a satisfactory trade, and it's certainly not about "winning". People who want to collect as much as they can in order to "win" aren't "capitalism". Sure, they exist in capitalism, just like they will anywhere else, but it's something else entirely.

[AlexM]

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OK, I'm sorry, but this is so obviously untrue that your belief in it just makes you seem insane to me. Every day when thinking about things that are wrong with my life I think "well, at least I have toilet paper" or "at least I'm not slaving in the hot sun all day" or "wow, I sure love that I live in a time where I have running water" or "gee, this refrigerated food sure is great" or "man, people must have been so bored without television and video games".

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Yeah, I do too. It's an example of how one's satisfaction with one's life is relative - it's based on who or what you compare your life to.

By consciously comparing your life to those whose lives are worse than yours, you make your own life seem better.

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So you agree that we're happier than people 500 years ago. Thanks.

[AlexM]

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I should have mentioned that there's a second, very relevant possible interpretation. This is that people actually do feel happier today than they did fifty years ago, but they report it differently. 1950s person says, "I have this tiny grain black & white television. It's state of the art, I can't imagine anything better, and therefore I am as happy as it's possible to be with it." Move to the present day, and the same consumer reports the same feelings about his 80" LCD HDTV. This is true even if 1950s man's subjective happiness was lower because he was watching a crappy TV. He couldn't realize it, and therefore report it, because he didn't know what TV-related happiness is.


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There are two problems with this example. The first is that is supposes a person who has a subjective experience on happiness can somehow be wrong. What is happiness, besides a subjective experience? How can you be unhappy, if you don't realize that you are? (Doesn't unrealized unhappiness = not unhappy?)

The other is that it supposes that a 80" LCD HDTV makes you happy. It makes you happy - at most- until a 100" LCD HDTV comes out. Just as the 1950's person was happy with his B&W TV only until the color ones came out.

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I'm sorry, but in my opinion, anyone whose happiness about having an 80" LCD TV changes to unhappiness as soon as a 100" version comes out, would probably benefit from psychological counseling. It's just my opinion, but I believe that would indicate an unbalanced and unhealthy psychological profile (if happiness about something which is very nice could so easily turn to unhappiness as soon as that nice thing is no longer "the very best" available).

Simply put, a person with such a psychological makeup could never be happy about anything - for long. Sorry again but that just seems pretty bizarre to me.

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Exactly, but everything Linus is talking about in this thread assumes that all people are like this when in fact the people like this are a small minority (at least to that extreme).

[LinusKS]

Alex,

Five posts up you say you feel less happy because "in the future people might live to be 300 years old."

And you say you're "much happier" because you understand people in the past "often only lived to be in their 30s."

In the very next post, you say you couldn't care less" what other people have or don't have.

Which is it?

Are you actually happier because of what people in the past or in the future have or don't have, while completely disregarding the people around you?

And if so, why is it you only compare yourself to people haven't been born yet, or are long dead?

[AlexM]

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Alex,

Five posts up you say you feel less happy because "in the future people might live to be 300 years old."

And you say you're "much happier" because you understand people in the past "often only lived to be in their 30s."

In the very next post, you say you couldn't care less" what other people have or don't have.

Which is it?

Are you actually happier because of what people in the past or in the future have or don't have, while completely disregarding the people around you?

And if so, why is it you only compare yourself to people haven't been born yet, or are long dead?

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Both. Just because I want something someone else has doesn't mean I want it because they have it. And I'm not comparing myself to anyone.

[LinusKS]

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I'm just someone who understands basic psychology.

These problems are NOT inherent in capitalism.

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No, they're not inherent in capitalism. They're inherent in human nature. Capitalism merely exploits them; and some capitalists, at least (the more successful ones?) do what they can to cultivate them.


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Are we really supposed to believe that, because capitalism is like running a treadmill, socialism (being the opposite) will suddenly fill the void in everyone's life by limiting their options and halting innovation?

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No. Nor did I ever say or mean to imply such a thing.

FWIW, I am not a socialist, or a communist.

[LinusKS]

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And I'm not comparing myself to anyone.

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Except to people who've been dead 500 years, and to people who haven't been born yet.

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in the future people might live to be 300 years old, and so I am less happy

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They're your words, not mine.

[LinusKS]

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I'm sorry, but in my opinion, anyone whose happiness about having an 80" LCD TV changes to unhappiness as soon as a 100" version comes out, would probably benefit from psychological counseling.

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And yet, people's happiness about things does change when new things come out.

Would you be happy with a 12" B&W TV?

And yet, 50 years ago you would have been.

The same thing applies to CRT monitors... and pretty much everything.

Someone said he's happy with a "decent" car. But what is a decent car?

There was a time when a car without A/C, heat, power steering, or even a starter system that didn't depend on standing outside the car and turning a crank was "decent." (Even marvelous.) But that's not the case anymore.