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#81
10-11-2007, 08:07 PM
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Re: I Stand Corrected.....
[ QUOTE ]
Oh? Many of these students were 26 years old and older? Mmmmmmmm....perhaps they were double majors. Yes? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Or perhaps they failed calculus several times and that delayed they graduation as well. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Or perhaps Iranians don't start kindergarden until they are 16? Yes? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] Felix, I think he was making the same argument I did that you still haven't responded to. I brought up blowback. You made fun of the idea and said that the Iranians that were part of the 1979 coup were not alive during the 1953 Shah takeover. And at the same time, you justify bombing Saudi Arabia and Iran for things that happened 30-50 years ago. So unless you're really old, you have no legitimate grievance against Saudi Arabia and Iran. Are you understanding your faulty logic? 
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#82
10-11-2007, 08:26 PM
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Re: Als Spracht Zarathustra.......
Felix,
If I steal my neighbor's stereo and sell it to you, do you own it. If US companies invest in the middle east, they need to do their math. A simple EV calculation, don't you think?
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#83
10-11-2007, 08:41 PM
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Re: I Stand Corrected.....
[ QUOTE ]
made fun of the idea and said that the Iranians that were part of the 1979 coup were not alive during the 1953 Shah takeover. And at the same time, you justify bombing Saudi Arabia and Iran for things that happened 30-50 years ago. [/ QUOTE ] Very good.... You are capable of making an intelligent argument. Intelligent arguments are something I rarely see in this forum... It is refreshing to see. My compliments to you. You show promise. I've also seen some other well thought out arguments in this thread as well. Could it be the standard of discussion in this forum is improving!!! One can only hope.... [ QUOTE ] So unless you're really old, you have no legitimate grievance against Saudi Arabia and Iran. Are you understanding your faulty logic? [/ QUOTE ] I'm 43.... I remember Jimmy Carter's presidency vividly. In high school I actually listened to his presidental speeches and they were BORING! That nitwit Chris Matthews was his speech writer (he has the TV Show "Hardball"). But....my lampooning of the previous post does not accurately reflect my position. My point is the 1953 Iranian coup was justified by the nationalization of the oil infrastructure by the Iranians. If they didn't steal property that did not belong to them then the coup would not have been initiated.... The coup brought justice to their theft of these assets. The slate was cleaned at that moment. If they did not steal, they would not have reapped the consequences..... The 1979 hostage takeover was a gross act of war. This was a GROSS breach against the sovereignty of the USA. Jimmy Carter failed to punish the Iranians and this still haunts us today as the Iranians believe they can commit violent acts against the USA without consequences... As for the Saudis they stole American property and this property is largely funding Wahabism and Al Qaeda. I think there is no statute of limitations for this theft nor their financing of Sunni terrorism.... I would support an American invasion of Saudia Arabia and the seizing of the oil fields..... The justification would be: 1. to reclaim stolen US property or 2. to stop terrorism Either would be both valid arguments for this attack..... if the Saudis would leave us alone, we could leave them alone. Remember, they were the ones that invited us to invest money in their country.... They were the ones that welch on the deal and ripped us off.... They are the ones primarily funding Sunni terrorism...
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#84
10-11-2007, 08:58 PM
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Re: What has influenced you to your current position in politics.
I have identified as a libertarian since I first heard what the LP stood for in high school (before that I identified as liberal). When I started getting involved in political discussions online, it eventually became clear that taxation is unquestionably theft and that even with the small government libertarianism I previously supported, the ends almost never justify the means, so now I am more of an anarchist. This is my philosophical/moral view.
Now, my realist point of view is a bit different. Since I don't consider anarchism a realistic possibility, I have to choose something that I think is workable in the real world with real people. As such, I support extreme decentralization of government, because this is the form of government that allows the most people to be happy and live under their own beliefs. If Texans want to ban abortion, ban flag burning and have prayer in public schools, Californians need to mind their own business rather than telling them they can't. Conversely, if Californians want to have universal health care, medicinal marijuana and a government retirement plan, Texans should mind their own business rather than telling them they can't. By letting each state make their own decisions, the states can maximize the happiness of their citizens. And if New Hampshire wants to legalize drugs and have no welfare programs, Californians and Texans alike should mind their own business. When decisions are made by the central government, someone is guaranteed to get screwed over and no one is happy.
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#85
10-11-2007, 09:14 PM
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Re: Als Spracht Zarathustra.......
[ QUOTE ]
Then the USA would never go to war since only a small percentage of Americans join the military. People are entitled to free speech whether the served in the military or not....without being accused of hypocracy... [/ QUOTE ] Believe it or not...there are not a lot of people that share your pretty "radical" views on foreign policy; certainly not enough to not allow us to go to war if they were forced to shut up.
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#86
10-11-2007, 09:38 PM
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Re: Als Spracht Zarathustra.......
So Felix, if there is no statute of limitation on theft would you support a British invasion of the United States to reclaim stolen property? Their justification would be, If only those damn revolutionaries hadn't rebeled...we wouldn't have invaded them 232 years later...they had it coming. And actually, the Native Americans would have a greater claim to the land than anyone. France helped us overthrow the British in the American Revolution...Britain should invade France. I guess most of the world should be at war right now since there's no statute of limitations on theft or sponsoring terrorism.
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#87
10-11-2007, 10:06 PM
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Re: Als Spracht Zarathustra.......
[ QUOTE ]
If I steal my neighbor's stereo and sell it to you, do you own it. [/ QUOTE ] No....but how is this analogy applicable? [ QUOTE ] If US companies invest in the middle east, they need to do their math. A simple EV calculation, don't you think? [/ QUOTE ] Is there any business transaction where companies do NOT run their numbers? If you are trying to justify the theft of property from US citizens then you are failing.
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#88
10-11-2007, 10:22 PM
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Re: Als Spracht Zarathustra.......
[ QUOTE ]
So Felix, if there is no statute of limitation on theft would you support a British invasion of the United States to reclaim stolen property? Their justification would be, If only those damn revolutionaries hadn't rebeled...we wouldn't have invaded them 232 years later...they had it coming. [/ QUOTE ] No because I believe in the "clean slate" principle. A peace treaty gives both parties a clean slate. The peace treaty was signed between our respective countries resolved these differences. The moment the peace treaty was signed both parties are obligated to honor the terms of the treaty in exchange for peace.... [ QUOTE ] And actually, the Native Americans would have a greater claim to the land than anyone. [/ QUOTE ] Whew! Thank goodness for our peace treaty with the Indians. BTW the Indians started their share of wars with settlers so they are not lilly-white innocent in these affairs. The slate is clean... [ QUOTE ] Britain should invade France. [/ QUOTE ] Britain *WAS* at war with France and they would have invaded France if they could. But again a peace treaty was signed between France and England. Both parties gave up certain claims in exchange for peace.... The slate is clean... [ QUOTE ] I guess most of the world should be at war right now since there's no statute of limitations on theft or sponsoring terrorism. [/ QUOTE ] Where there are no peace treaties perhaps. Technically the USA and North Korea are still at war. The USA can attack them when ever they choose to.... Can you give any examples of what you are referring to? The USA has signed no treaty relinquishing the rights to property stolen via nationalization. Most presidents just ignore these thefts. Any nationalization contracts signed by the victimized companies are not valid when the executives had a financial gun held to their head.... But as they say, 'possession is 9/10ths of the law'.
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#89
10-11-2007, 10:24 PM
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Re: Als Spracht Zarathustra.......
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] If I steal my neighbor's stereo and sell it to you, do you own it. [/ QUOTE ] No....but how is this analogy applicable? [ QUOTE ] If US companies invest in the middle east, they need to do their math. A simple EV calculation, don't you think? [/ QUOTE ] Is there any business transaction where companies do NOT run their numbers? If you are trying to justify the theft of property from US citizens then you are failing. [/ QUOTE ] You think US businesses should be able to externalize the costs of securing their assets to US citizens. I disagree. Firstly, on moral grounds, but also, knowledge that the government will secure your investments with guns creates a moral hazard. The bottom line is US companies understand the instability of those regions and should buy their own damn insurance policies. My first analogy conveys the idea that kings don't own land and oil reserves just because they say so. If my claim to ownership is that I have taken it at the barrel of a gun, why should I have recourse when someone uses a gun to take it back.
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#90
10-11-2007, 10:35 PM
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Re: Als Spracht Zarathustra.......
[ QUOTE ]
The bottom line is US companies understand the instability of those regions and should buy their own damn insurance policies. [/ QUOTE ] If Exxon were allowed to have their own private armies to protect their foreign assets (self insured) then you would have your point. When a despot tries to use its military to steal Exxon's assets, Exxon can destroy their own equipment to prevent this theft.... But if you advocate this then you are effectivley advocating anarchy.... Civilizations that have no central govts don't last long... One critical core function of all govts is protecting its people and its assets via police/military... [ QUOTE ] My first analogy conveys the idea that kings don't own land and oil reserves just because they say so. If my claim to ownership is that I have taken it at the barrel of a gun, why should I have recourse when someone uses a gun to take it back. [/ QUOTE ] Saudia Arabia is a sovereign govt that is recognize by the USA. Your ideas on ownership of property are a pipe dream. I'm not interested in chasing this red herring.... The Saudi tribes that invited investment on their lands own the that land.....
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