STTF SNG->cash thread

[terrellk11]

Ok - here's my second question:

Why are you just calling the flop? By not raising preflop, you did nothing to narrow down the list of possible hands you're up against - could be just about any two decent cards at this point. On the flop, you've hit TPTK and he bets into you again with what looks like a fairly standard-sized bet. By calling, you've again done nothing to get any information about his hand - that continuation bet could be with total air, it could be a set, it could be a draw, it could be an overpair.

From my (possibly ignorant) point of view, you're ceding control of the hand, turning into a calling station, and getting no information about your opponent's hand.

[futuredoc85]

flop is close, but if i raise it i have to fold to a 3-bet, or to a turn c/r. Raising still may be fine but im def not doing it for information. he's weird and bad and i cant trust whatever information he gives me. If i raise the flop the rest of the hand is me value-betting every street and folding to a raise anywhere.

[microbet]

fd,

I might have been biased by thinking you thought it was a close call, but a lot of people that call down really light, don't bet that light. He'll probably call a raise with just about anything he's betting except air, so since he's pretty much never bluff raising the river the only question is if you are ahead of his made hands 50% of the time. Seems close, but a lot of people who call down light do not bet light. I guess he must be aggro as well at times if he gets it all in pre with 22, ATo.

(terrel) I think raising the flop doesn't narrow his range except for folding out whiffs. He's likely to switch to playing from behind with a set or an overpair if you raise anyway. He might go on and call you down with KJ or something which would be cool though, but you don't know who's taking who to valuetown.

cts wanted to raise the flop too and that would probably be good if you can see him calling down with 77-TT or stuff like that. That would be a pretty weird call down though after you take the initiative away. I'd think he'd be pretty likely to release on the turn.

[futuredoc85]

also control of the hand, or "initiative" or w/e is only important if there is more value in raising/betting than calling down.

[Pudge714]

terrelk,
FWIW betting for information is almost always bad.

[terrellk11]

1. Most of my questions/comments on the hand deal with issues other than the river bet. On the river I agree that it's either a call or raise situation.

2. When you're betting for information solely for the purpose of getting information, yes it's pretty much always bad. But that's not what I'm talking about in this particular situation.

Going purely by the description of the player given in the original post, you have a player who is bad but there's no indication from that description that the guy will bet/bluff with air. The only postflop information we have about the guy is that he check-called three barrels with a flopped TPTK (even with a four straight on board) and that he has made some "weird calldowns."

There's nothing in the information given by future to give any reason to believe the guy gets out of line betting without a hand.

The guy check/called the flop with TPTK rather than betting it out. So you think he's betting all the way on this hand with something less than TPTK? The way he's betting this hand gives every indication that you're behind on the flop and turn. If you're not behind, you're hand is vulnerable and calling him down let's him set the price to catch up.

If you raise and he three bets, yes you have to fold. But you have no reason (or at least have given us no reason) to believe that he's going to 3-bet you there without having you beat. He'll call you down with worse hands (given that he makes weird calldowns), so there's value in raising other than just getting information here if you raise and get three bet on the flop it's going to cost you a lot less than raising on the river and getting three bet there.

[K䲰䮥n]

This gives me trouble because of my image.

Seat 3: ucantwin1 ( $51.05 ) <font color="blue">unknown</font>
Seat 6: Firetribe ( $97 ) <font color="blue">image is aggro PF, aggro post flop but has folded 6/6 times in past 15 hands when faced counter aggression</font>
Seat 8: nutsflopper ( $172.15 )<font color="blue">23/17 5/2/1, no past "wars"</font>
bleutotem posts Small Blind $0.50
ucantwin1 posts Big Blind $1
Dealing cards

Your cards Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] [Firetribe]
paravozchixpb1x folds
Firetribe raises $3.50
nutsflopper calls $3.50
bleutotem folds
ucantwin1 calls $2.50

Dealing Flop Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
ucantwin1 checks
Firetribe bets $7
nutsflopper raises $20
ucantwin1 folds
<font color="blue">Firetribe?</font>


Comments appreciated

[blackize]

[ QUOTE ]

There's nothing in the information given by future to give any reason to believe the guy gets out of line betting without a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Getting AI preflop with 22 and ATo would require getting out of line without a hand I think.

[microbet]

If on the flop you could be fairly sure he'd reraise you with better hands and call you down with a lot of worse hands then raising the flop would be good and you could call that "betting for information."

I just think there's too much of a mix of him not reraising with better hands and folding worse hands.

[cakewalk]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

SB ($231.90)
Hero ($112.35)
UTG ($106.50)
MP ($127.70)
CO ($306.95)
Button ($42.60)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $3</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to $17</font>, Hero calls $16, CO calls $14.

Flop: ($51) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $36</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $289.95</font>, SB folds, Hero calls $59.35 (All-In).

Turn: ($241.70) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: ($241.70) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $241.70

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has Kc As (two pair, aces and nines).
CO has Jh Ah (two pair, aces and nines).
Outcome: Hero wins $241.70. CO wins $194.60. </font>

someone was talking about this recently