Stuck Between Agnosticism and Christianity

[bunny]

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FWIW, the definition of christianity doesn't change regardless if you are in America, Australia, or Africa....it's still the same Bunny.

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It is the same and it includes interpretation. The interpretation of the bible does vary dramatically based on geography.

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We have been down this road before. You know my thoughts on this subject.

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No I dont. I'd be curious if you would answer yes or no to the question "Do you believe God is going to lovingly torture me forever because I have misunderstood the bible?"

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I quoted you alot of scripture relating to hell & how people will be going there someday the last time this came up. As usual, you shrugged me off with a "nah, I like my theory better" attitude.

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That is a fundamental misunderstanding of both my position and attitude. I would like to know the truth - I dont care whose theory it is.

[bunny]

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On your hell question...I actually don't have a full answer at this time...Probably because I never have never worried much about going to hell...

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Most versions of christianity provide assurances that it wont happen to you. Dont you think it's a strange characteristic of the god we worship though - if there are some people he loves and tortures forever because they made a mistake?

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I always felt God was good even before becoming a Christian...I never felt like I had to put the screws to him to explain everything...I read the Bible and most of it makes sense...There are some areas like biblical history and a few really weird Old Testament bible stories (that it takes a biblical scholar to understand and interpret) that are hard to understand...the history of the bible and the identity of the old countries in the bible and a lot of hidden bible symbology (I believe Revelations is in some kind of Hebrew code to protect it from the Romans...John was in a Roman prison in Patmos and it wasn't an easy prison for him there either)...that is hard to understand...It takes patience and perserverance to read the Bible...most people won't do it...they always take the shortcut...I think if they took the long road it would make all the difference, but when its a spiritual journey everyone seems to look for the shortcut...Maybe that's why there are so many stories and parables...for all the people trying to take shortcuts or maybe just because in the early days of Christianity almost nobody could read, but they could recite stories...

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I dont know that I disagree with you really, it's similar to the approach I take, although I expect we differ on questions like inerrancy and canonicity. To clarify though, my questioning and doubting and trying not to form views which are logically inconsistent is nothing to do with putting god to the test - it's to test whether or not what I'm saying makes sense. I would recommend against falling back on the "dont test god" excuse (if you'll pardon the label) when someone asks a difficult question. If you're not prepared to defend the positions you adopt, how will you know if you've misinterpreted god's word? Maybe we cant think our way to god, but we can ensure that what we are claiming about him makes sense.

[PantsOnFire]

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Growing up Catholic, I was taught where where we go after we die (and for some reason, purgatory was neglected to be mentioned as an option). On top of this, I was taught how to behave so you could actually control where you go when you die.

As I developed as a person, my math and science type of mind slowly started seeing a pattern in society and life. People can manipulate your behaviour by presenting consequences as a result of that behaviour. This exact process is the “IF” “THEN ELSE” computer programming method.

That model is good for controlling children and locking up criminals but it is no good for telling me how to live my life. I slowly stepped out of my “religion” (Catholicism) and only after reading about Agnosticism did I realize that’s what I now was, not that it mattered to me.

I find it very odd that so many different religions can believe so many different things and they are each certain they are right. Like I said, I'm a math guy and that doesn't add up.

Mu current position is that I don’t know what’s going to happen to me when I die so by default, I don’t know if there’s anything I can do about it while I’m alive.

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You're an atheist. Agnostic is not a belief position, it's a method of gaining knowledge.

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That's interesting. After doing some research I believe I qualify as a weak atheist, a practical atheist, an agnostic atheist and an apathetic agnostic.

However, like I had said, I really don't care what label I am given in this matter.

[Jamougha]

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Besides the "atheistic pulpit", my comment about atheism being a religion was a direct reference to atheism being something that comes about by faith.

The atheists still "believe" in something, even if it's only science.

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Are you deliberately ignoring inconvenient bits of replies or does your mind actually edit out things you don't want to see?

[Mempho]

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Besides the "atheistic pulpit", my comment about atheism being a religion was a direct reference to atheism being something that comes about by faith.

The atheists still "believe" in something, even if it's only science.

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Are you deliberately ignoring inconvenient bits of replies or does your mind actually edit out things you don't want to see?

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No, are you speaking about proving non-existence logic?

I thought I cleared that up, that while atheism is not a religion "per se," it does require a certain amount of faith.

[bunny]

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I thought I cleared that up, that while atheism is not a religion "per se," it does require a certain amount of faith.

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What faith is required to not have a belief in god?

[Mempho]

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I thought I cleared that up, that while atheism is not a religion "per se," it does require a certain amount of faith.

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What faith is required to not have a belief in god?

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Atheism, as used in common vernacular as opposed to the strict definition, uses supportive arguments that require a certain degree of faith in something.

In strict definition, atheism requires no faith. The "vocal atheists," as individuals, however, always show faith in something by their choice of supporting arguments.

A common belief held by atheists who use science, for instance, is that scienctific consensus can't be the result of biased, errant, or falliable science that created increasing levels of groupthink with weaknesses covered by justifications which are merely the result of confirmation bias.

[bunny]

Thanks - I dont really agree, but I'm not particularly interested in "vernacular atheism" anyhow. I'm more concerned with whether "well defined atheism" is a better position to adopt or not.

[Taraz]

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Wikipedia tells us that "hell" is described by all these religions:

2 Religious literature & views
2.1 Bahá'í Faith
2.2 Buddhism
2.3 Chinese religions
2.4 Christianity
2.5 Deism
2.6 Greek Mythology
2.7 Hinduism
2.8 Islam
2.9 Japanese religions
2.10 Judaism
2.11 Maya faith
2.12 Norse Mythology
2.13 Taoism
2.14 Unification Church
2.15 Zoroastrianism

So even if you could force yourself to believe in this Jesus character, you'd still be 14:1 against avoiding hell, on the unlikely (silly!) assumption that these are the only options.


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vnh sir! And to think of all the sects within them too. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

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As I already pointed out, most of the religions on this list don't subscribe to a notion of hell that we would be at all familiar with. Most of them describe an afterlife of some sort however.

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That is true, but wouldn't you agree that with the potential of so many afterlifes that just focusing on one possibility might not be that productive?

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Of course. I was just trying to point out that believing in Christianity doesn't put you at risk for alternative forms of hell because there aren't really many alternative hells. So if you are the most scared of the Christian hell, perhaps it would make sense to bet on Christianity because the consequences aren't as bad if you got it wrong.

Then again, I think it's pretty silly to live your life in fear of a place that we have no evidence for other than ancient texts.

[Splendour]

I'm not using a don't test god approach bunny...I am saying I don't focus on hell...Yes, hell could be a result if I screw up, but I don't continuously focus on that...I focus on getting what I can get right right...and no I'm not faultless...As for defending to guard against misinterpretation that may not be enough...I could defend something aptly and still misunderstand something or misapply something, but that's why we have prayer and grace and Christ as our mediator...Christianity isn't in how well you defend it, its in how well you trust in God...As for all the snares people set, that's to be expected...Division is easy, its Unity that's hard...and Christians are after unity with God through the gift of his Son...